What Is Man?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Solved What Is Man?

Post  Common on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 1:03 am

I introduce you all to this topic, which I call "What Is Man"? I am focusing on What We Are. That is, what makes us up, and several important concepts on that. Please take the time to read it all and really evaluate. Seriously, all ye in Christ, listen.

Unless God intervenes by some special resurrection, you are in the ground.

Let me start by this, What ARE we?

Man's body is made up of DUST. God made our form out of dust. Genesis 2:7.

Now look at this, which many overlook. When God made our body, were we alive? NO. We were just dust, how can we be alive? We can't. The thing that made man COME ALIVE was that breath of life, that spark of energy that makes us who we are. So we see that body without the breath of life can't exist. And that breath of life without a body will NOT function either. What will that breath be going into? Nothing. Genesis 2:7

Now that we have that established, let us focus on the last part of Genesis 2:7. "And man became a living soul."
So...man, a soul, can ONLY be alive when body and spirit are together. One cannot live without the other. Let me clarify.

BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = MAN (SOUL)

So we see that if man has a body and no breath, he can't live. ...While if man has the breath of life and no body, he can't live.

Let me liken this to a box. You need the board and the nails to make a box. If you have the nails, and not the boards, there IS NO BOX. Likewise, if you have the boards, but NOT the nails, there...IS - NO - BOX. I make very much emphasis on this. I will relate this examle to man. Let's say man's body is the boards of the box, and the breath of life is the nails of the box.

BODY (BOARDS) + NAILS (BREATH) = MAN (BOX)

With one missing, the whole thing ceases to function. This is the same way with man.

When we die, our body returns to dust. We have no body. Would it not make sense then, based on the light of Scripture above, that if we have no body, we CEASE TO FUNCTION. We are no longer alive. Where are we then? Are we in heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, another spiritual realm? No, we are simply in the dust, dead, unconscious. -NOT KNOWING ANYTHING.


This statement is really for contemplation. Think on it. For your questions and comments, replys, etc. I would ask that you start on the same level I did. --That is, on what makes up man. Let us do this one at a time, brothers and sisters.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 12:27 pm

Dear Common

This is quite a philosophical question and I must say that God has blessed you with wisdom. Your logic is quite interesting and I believe that a soul has two mediums:
  1. Body (when we are alive)
  2. Spirit (when we die)
However, when we are alive body and spirit co-exist as one. I do not believe in purgatory because this concept is quite out of the Bible and many people use this concept to justify themselves. What you are referring to No, we are simply in the dust, dead, unconscious. -NOT KNOWING ANYTHING. is taken from Psalms and is a phrase and not a condition. It is still used that when you die, you are no more.

If it is true that dead know nothing, then why did King Saul call on Samuel's spirit to consult him?


Last edited by Waqar Daniel on Fri 10 Apr 2009, 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 12:33 am

Thank you. God has greatly blessed you with wisdom as I see from your Replys and Topics.

I must say, that if you refer back to my illustration on the box, you will get your answer concerning the statement you made:

What you are referring to No, we are simply in the dust, dead, unconscious. -NOT KNOWING ANYTHING. is taken from Psalms and is a phrase and not a condition.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "The dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

It seems quite clear on the condition of the dead here in Ecclesiastes.

We will move on to the Witch of Endor but I still want to stay at this beginning level.

You also said:

Your logic is quite interesting and I believe that a soul has two mediums:

  1. Body (when we are alive)
  2. Spirit (when we die)

Since we have established that a *soul is actually Man, you believe that man has two mediums? Body and Spirit? Please refer to my illustration on the box. Man consists of Body and Spirit. If his Body is not there he ceases to exist. Likewise, if he does not have a Spirit, he is not alive.

God bless you.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 11:05 am

Ecclesiastes 9 4:5

Verse 4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Explanation
Solomon writes that when we are alive we have hope to do good and follow the commands of God. We can see this verse working in King David's life when he laid with Bathsheba and she conceived and told David about it. David found himself in trouble and quickly came up with a solution and sent Joab to call for Uriah, Bathsheba's husband. When Uriah refused to go home and be with his wife, David got him killed.

David sinned and was guilty of sin and as he was alive he had hope that God would forgive him. He sought forgiveness from God and He forgave. Now remember this all happened when David was alive. If David would have died, could he ask for forgiveness from God for his evil?

...for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Solomon uses a proverb and it is still used. Basically this proverb means that it is better to live in poverty than to steal and die like a great thief, for you cannot take all the wealth you stored up using ill means. Let us see this proverb in the Bible

No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him-

8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough-

9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.

10 For all can see that wise men die;
the foolish and the senseless alike perish
and leave their wealth to others.


11 Their tombs will remain their houses forever,
their dwellings for endless generations,
though they had named lands after themselves.

12 But man, despite his riches, does not endure;
he is like the beasts that perish.
(Psalms 49:8-13)

Verse 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. (NIV)

Explanation
This verse simply says that living people know that they must do good and to accept Jesus as their Savior, seek forgiveness but dead do not have this opportunity. Please read the whole verse and not part of the verse. Dead know nothing is part of the verse. The whole verse if read in whole will become like this;
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
What is the fact that dead are not aware of? There is no hope for them, what is done is done. Now they will be judged according to their deeds and the time given to them.

The verse talks of the fact that when we are alive, we must fear that one day we will die and we be facing God on the judgment day and we also must realize that God will hold us accountable for our deeds. Dead people do not have this facility to think about their actions.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Is this verse for dead or alive?

All our lives on earth, we have hope and we strive for that hope. For living know that will die. If we have this fear in our lives that we have to die one day and will be held accountable, we work hard for our salvation and we are rewarded accordingly.

but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Once we die, do we get a chance to go back and undo our sins? There is no reward after death because our time is over to earn our salvation. As Solomon writes, that once we are dead there are no more rewards, and similarly no more repentance. Once we die, we cannot undo anything.

David says in Psalms, But I am an olive tree, flourishing in the house of God (Ps 52:8) David can only say this thing while alive because he knows that when he is alive he is like an olive tree, he can prune himself, give fruit. But when he dies, what use will be that tree. Neither it can flourish nor it can give fruit.

Judgment Day will be like Noah's flood. When the time was right to seek shelter, people lived on their lives and when the day came, they begged for mercy but what happened? They all died. Same will be the case of the Final Judgment. Warnings of God are there but only those will be saved, who will take those warnings seriously and mend their ways and make Jesus their Lord and Savior.

Now coming to the part Dead know nothing again, I believe that King Saul called on the spirit of Samuel and Samuel's spirit knew pretty much as we read. So you see after all dead do know a lot.

Last thing I would like to ask you, as we all know Jesus died and was raised up by Heavenly Father on the Third Day. Now as we know Jesus died and then, Ephesians 4:9, “...He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”. After doing all this, Jesus rose up from the dead.

Now Jesus was dead, and He rose from the dead on the third day, if I put your logic here then, how could Jesus preach, for dead know nothing as you say - How could He go down to the lower parts of the earth, according to your logic, this is impossible, for you say that life ceases after death?

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  FaithfulSon on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 2:12 pm

I believe that after a man's death the soul turns in to spirit as we read
Luke 24:36-39, "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
If dead people's souls do not turn in to spirits, the question I would like to ask, why Jesus did not rebuke them because this became a teaching of the Bible. Blessings in Jesus.

FaithfulSon
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 128
Location : California, USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17209
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 4:23 pm

Daniel, the following is Ecclesiastes 9:4-6:

4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Solomon makes a point here. As one is alive, as you said, there is hope to do good and follow the commands of God. He then moves on in verse 5. He states that the living know that they will eventually die. Like me, for example. I know if the Lord does not come in my lifetime I will eventually die. He then talks about the dead: But the dead know not any thing. The dead are unconscious. They have no memory.
Of course when one is dead they do not have the oppurtunity for forgiveness. They are gone. There is not a second chance. Once they are dead they are dead. I understand that. --And I will address your questions once we lay down the foundation.

So before I move on to what happens when we die, we have to first consider what makes up man. I keep emphasizing on that because if one misunderstands it, there will be plenty of theories to come up as to what happens to a man when he dies.

I will address Faithfulson.
It was said:

I believe that after a man's death the soul turns in to spirit as we read
Luke 24:36-39, "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."
If dead people's souls do not turn in to spirits, the question I would like to ask, why Jesus did not rebuke them because this became a teaching of the Bible. Blessings in Jesus.

The first error here is that man does not HAVE a soul. Therefore there is NO soul turning into a spirit. Genesis 2:7.
You see, the disciples thought they had seen a Ghost. Before I go on, I want to quote Proverbs 4:18: The path of the just is as a shining light that shines more and more unto the perfect day.
So as time goes on God gives more and more light. I say this because even the disciples, as we can see, believed in "ghosts." That is, people that died coming back in the form of a disembodied soul.

You see, Jesus deals with people based on their level of understanding. Jesus was telling them that he was not an apparition, according to their idea.

Blessings in Jesus to both of you as well.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 7:58 pm

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
As you say that soul is same as man (body), then in the letter to Thessalonians it shows a different picture. Paul prays to God save their
  1. Spirit
  2. Soul
  3. Body
Now let us see where spirit lives; For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:9-11).

Dead know nothing
Let us discuss this first and then move on to the rest. I know that many believe in the idea that when we die, our souls cease to exist or at least "fall asleep" and become totally inert, until the end of the world and our resurrection. I know that they hold on to Ecclesiastes 9:5. However, I do not agree with this theory of Deep sleep, my reasoning is as follows:
When he broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of all the people who had been killed on account of the word of God, for witnessing to it. They shouted aloud, "Holy, faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth?" (Revelation 6:9-10)
The Bible is saying that martyrs go to heaven before the Judgment and the most important thing to note is that it this takes place before the resurrection, before the end of the world, before the Judgment, while life is going on as usual on the earth. Also, the martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred. So to say that these martyrs "know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) in the sense of being unconscious, or something like that, would be incorrect.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18-19)
If the spirits in prison are dead and "know nothing", then why is Jesus preaching to them? Certainly this goes against the theory of Dead know nothing.
And I say unto you my friends, "Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do." (Luke 12:4)
Jesus says that murderers kill only the body, and cannot harm the soul at all. In other words, our soul stays alive, despite anything a murderer might try to do. Therefore again, Dead know nothing is incorrect and here Jesus distinguishes between soul and body.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:37-39)
I will quote the same verse that "faithfulson" quoted and my understanding is that if a spirit apart from its body is dead, then surely the Apostles would know this and thus would not have thought that a living Jesus would be a spirit. Also, if the Apostles had been incorrect in believing that a person's soul survives apart from that person's body, then why didn't Jesus correct them instead of encouraging them in this "erroneous" belief they held? In fact, Jesus here says that the spirit exists independently of the body.
And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
That day ("today") was before the resurrection.

Check this incident
So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 34:5)
Moses died and his death is recorded. Now if we put Dead know nothing then the following incident is fake
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." (Matthew 17:1,3-4)
If dead become nothing and know nothing then how come Moses and Elias talked with Jesus? Both Moses and Elias were dead (died many hundreds years before Jesus came to earth) yet talked to Jesus. Therefore, dear Common as you mentioned No, we are simply in the dust, dead, unconscious. -NOT KNOWING ANYTHING. is incorrect and un-Biblical as well.


Last edited by Waqar Daniel on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  ChristianLady on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 8:27 pm

Brilliant info Daniel and I corroborate that we cannot hold on to a part of verse without understanding and reject what Bible says. Moreover, we must cross-reference verses to understand them properly. The story where Jesus talks to Moses is a real proof that it is incorrect to believe in that dead know nothing. I appreciate you taking out lot of your time to explain it so well.

ChristianLady
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 238
Age : 46
Location : USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17286
Reputation : 11
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  thirsty on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 8:34 pm

Very informative discussion going on and I will only share one thing. When I die, I may become a part of dust and I may know nothing but I firmly believe that I will be raised in Jesus because I have put my trust in Him and anyone who puts his trust in Jesus will never see shame. Blessings in Jesus and I thoroughly enjoyed going through responses. I hope to see more discussion on this subject.

thirsty
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 212
Age : 28
Location : South Africa
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17197
Reputation : 2
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  annlovesjesus on Sat 07 Mar 2009, 8:52 pm

I differ with you thirsty and forgive me to do so. We must learn the truth and I am eagerly reading both the sides.

annlovesjesus
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 58
Age : 46
Location : Australia
Registration date : 2008-09-27
Points : 15014
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  lisa1880 on Mon 09 Mar 2009, 5:24 pm

Man is a tri-partite being – spirit, soul and body. It is with his spirit that a man worships, and may contact God. The soul includes the conscious and subconscious minds, the realm of emotions and the will. Soul gives a man personality, self-awareness, rationality and natural feeling.

Man is described as a living soul (Genesis 2:7 KJV), which came into being at first by the breath of God (spirit) being breathed into a creation of the dust of the earth. Man is an intricate unity as well as being a three part being. For this reason, whatever happens in one part of a man's being has repercussions in other areas as well. For example, it is well known that a healthy, fit body is conducive to an upbeat attitude in the soul. The Book of Proverbs states that "a man's spirit will sustain him in sickness". "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine". Psalm 32 describes how unconfessed sin caused David's "bones to grow old", his "vitality to be turned into the drought of summer".

lisa1880
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 122
Age : 39
Location : South Africa
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17191
Reputation : 0
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Tue 10 Mar 2009, 1:05 am

Since we know the fundamental principle that Man is Spirit and Body, then what was Paul saying? It seems that Paul was being redundant and basically using a loose expression to reinforce man's wholeness and completeness. Throughout scripture you also see repitition of what means the same thing (Mark 12:30 is an example of that).

So we really see that Man is spirit and body. We have established that the spirit is the Breath of Life as well. So the Spirit is not something living in some kind of realm.

You know many believe in the concept that our souls cease to exist and fall asleep, but I know many more that believe the opposite. As a matter of fact, others believe that the soul never dies! But the soul is not immortal. It can and will die.

"...the soul (person) that sinneth, it shall DIE." Ezekiel 18:4.
"...every living soul DIED in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

As a matter of fact, the term "immortal" is ONLY used of Christ. 1 Timothy 6:16.
Also, the RIGHTEOUS will put on immortality at the Second Coming.

How can we put on immortality if we already possess it as so many believe?

Also, remember John 3:16: For God so loved the world that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. This verse tells us that everlasting (eternal) life is for the righteous. So...do the wicked possess eternal life right now as well? Will they gain it at the Second Coming too? Or do they even possess it at all?

Since we know that man possibly cannot live without his spirit and body, what could Revelation 6:9,10 mean? You see, the Bible often uses the figure of personifciation. Personification is a figure of speech that gives an inanimate object or abstract idea human traits and qualities, such as emotions, desires, sensations etc. An example of that, other than the one that you pointed out, is seen in Genesis 4:10 which reads:

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Now of course Abel's blood cannot "speak."

You said:

Also, the martyrs, despite being "dead", have their own memories, and remember that they have been martyred.

When one dies, they do not retain memory. Please see Isaiah 26:14 below:

They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

You said that you disagreed with the Deep Sleep concept yet when on the incident of Lazarus' death, Jesus used interchangeably that Lazarus being DEAD was actually SLEEP. See John 11:11-14.

_________________________

This pretty much is the conclusion to your arguments Daniel but I will address a particular one. That is the one with Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison.

Lets look at 1st Peter 3:18 and break it down.

For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,

Jesus Christ who was sinless suffered on the cross for sinners

...that he might bring us to God

Through the death of Jesus we have been reconciled to God

...being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit

He died the death all we as mortals must die but was raised by the Holy Spirit

...by which he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

So that is what we are mainly focusing on.


The same Holy Spirit by Noah preached unto those who were prisoners of sin.

Luke 4:18,19:

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Jesus in Luke was quoting the passage in Isaiah 61:1,2 which states:

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


The "captives" in Luke and Isaiah, and the "prisoners" in 1st Peter are both referring to then living people in bondage to sin - captives and prisoners of Satan surely, but not disembodied spirits in Hell/hades/limbo. It is the Gospel message that frees you from that captivity to sin!!!

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."


God bless you all.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  FaithfulSon on Tue 10 Mar 2009, 10:02 am

How can we compare Genesis 4:10 with Revelation? They are totally opposite I believe. Rest is your comments on Daniel's reasoning and it will be good that he answers it himself. I do not think that you can compare Genesis 4:10 with Revelation 6. Daniel put up lot of reasoning and you only took two verses. What would you say about "Transfiguration" and Samuel's spirit?

FaithfulSon
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 128
Location : California, USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17209
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Tue 10 Mar 2009, 2:13 pm

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18-19)
Let me explain this verse for you.

...being put to death
Who was put to death? - certainly Jesus

...but quickened by the Spirit
Who was quickened by the Spirit? - certainly Jesus

...preached unto the spirits in prison
Who preached to the spirits in prison - certainly Jesus
Was Jesus dead or alive - certainly dead
Was in body form or spirit - certainly in spirit form

Dear Common, I never said "Immortal Souls", Souls become everlasting when they fulfill only one condition and that is;
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Man has never been immortal, because we know when we were born, we know about deaths of people, so how can a man be immortal. Only God is immortal for we do not know His beginning and end. So mentioning this here is totally out of context.

Ezekiel 18:1-4
The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote the proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son - both a like belong to me. The soul that sins is the one who will die.

This is also mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah 31:29, the point here is why God said so. “For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” (Exodus 20:5-6)

Many theologians interpret this passage as concerning to Israelites when they were grumbling that why are they being punished for the sins their fathers had made. I take this passage as a Prophecy for God says that no more He will hold sons accountable for their fathers' sins because of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. See John 3:16 because John 3:16 makes every person / soul accountable for their acceptance of Jesus as their Savior or not.

Revelation 6 speaks of the words of Jesus ""A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God" (John 16:2).". So do you think that John is just dreaming here?

Therefore, dear common your break up of 1 Peter 3 is not that accurate and quoting Ezekiel 18 is totally out of context. And please do remember that Paul spoke through Holy Spirit and not on his own.

Discussion
Our discussion is on Dead know nothing. Therefore, I would like you to discuss on the following:
  • If man becomes dust and know nothing then why did Jesus tell that thief, "Today you will be with me in the paradise"? Certainly that thief's body must be lying un-noticed under mounds of earth, but according to Jesus' word he is with Him in paradise - in what form? Was Jesus just pacifying him and making it easy for him to die a miserable and painful death or telling him the truth?
  • If dead know nothing, then why did King Saul called on the Samuel's spirit?
  • Whom did Jesus talk to in Transfiguration if Moses has become dust and know nothing?
  • Why did the disciples think that they are seeing spirit of Jesus and why did Jesus not correct them saying that dead men have no spirits?
I hope that we will remain on the topic and will not quote verses that are not related to the topic.

God bless you

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  FaithfulSon on Wed 11 Mar 2009, 6:59 am

quickened by the Spirit--The oldest manuscripts omit the Greek article. Translate with the preposition "in," as the antithesis to the previous "in the flesh" requires, "IN spirit," that is, in respect to His Spirit. "Put to death" in the former mode of life; "quickened" in the other. Not that His Spirit ever died and was quickened, or made alive again, but whereas He had lived after the manner of mortal men in the flesh, He began to live a spiritual "resurrection" (1 Peter 3:21) life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God.

Two ways of explaining 1 Peter 3:18,19, are open to us: (1) "Quickened in Spirit," that is, immediately on His release from the "flesh," the energy of His undying spirit-life was "quickened" by God the Father, into new modes of action, namely, "in the Spirit He went down (as subsequently He went up to heaven, 1 Peter 3:22, the same Greek verb) and heralded [not salvation, as ALFORD, contrary to scripture, which everywhere represents man's state, whether saved or lost, after death irreversible.

Nor is any mention made of the conversion of the spirits in prison. 'preached the Gospel' (evangelizo), but 'heralded' (ekeruxe) or 'preached'; but simply made the announcement of His finished work; so the same Greek in Mark 1:45, 'publish,' confirming Enoch and Noah's testimony, and thereby declaring the virtual condemnation of their unbelief, and the salvation of Noah and believers; a sample of the similar opposite effects of the same work on all unbelievers, and believers, respectively; also a consolation to those whom Peter addresses, in their sufferings at the hands of unbelievers; specially selected for the sake of 'baptism,' its 'antitype' (1 Peter 3:21), which, as a seal, marks believers as separated from the rest of the doomed world] to the spirits (His Spirit speaking to the spirits) in prison (in Hades or Sheol, awaiting the judgment, 2 Peter 2:4), which were of old disobedient when," &c. (2) The strongest point in favor of (1) is the position of "sometime," that is, of old, connected with "disobedient"; whereas if the preaching or announcing were a thing long past, we should expect "sometime," or of old, to be joined to "went and preached."

But this transposition may express that their disobedience preceded His preaching. The Greek participle expresses the reason of His preaching, "inasmuch as they were sometime disobedient" (compare 1 Peter 4:6).

Also "went" seems to mean a personal going, as in 1 Peter 3:22, not merely in spirit. But see the answer below. The objections are "quickened" must refer to Christ's body (compare 1 Peter 3:21, end), for as His Spirit never ceased to live, it cannot be said to be "quickened." Compare John 5:21, Romans 8:11, and other passages, where "quicken" is used of the bodily resurrection. Also, not His Spirit, but His soul, went to Hades.

His Spirit was commended by Him at death to His Father, and was thereupon "in Paradise." The theory--(1) would thus require that His descent to the spirits in prison should be after His resurrection! Compare Ephesians 4:9,10, which makes the descent precede the ascent. Also scripture elsewhere is silent about such a heralding, though possibly Christ's death had immediate effects on the state of both the godly and the ungodly in Hades: the souls of the godly heretofore in comparative confinement, perhaps then having been, as some Fathers thought, translated to God's immediate and heavenly presence; but this cannot be proved from scripture. Compare however, John 3:13, Colossians 1:18.

Prison is always used in a bad sense in scripture. "Paradise" and "Abraham's bosom," the abode of good spirits in Old Testament times, are separated by a wide gulf from Hell or Hades, and cannot be called "prison." Compare 2 Corinthians 12:2,4, where "paradise" and the "third heaven" correspond. Also, why should the antediluvian unbelievers in particular be selected as the objects of His preaching in Hades? Therefore explain: "Quickened in spirit, in which (as distinguished from in person; the words "in which," that is, in spirit, expressly obviating the objection that "went" implies a personal going) He went (in the person of Noah, "a preacher of righteousness," 2 Peter 2:5: ALFORD'S own Note, Ephesians 2:17, is the best reply to his argument from "went" that a local going to Hades in person is meant.

As "He CAME and preached peace" by His Spirit in the apostles and ministers after His death and ascension: so before His incarnation He preached in Spirit through Noah to the antediluvians, John 14:18,28, Acts 26:23. "Christ should show," literally, "announce light to the Gentiles") and preached unto the spirits in prison, that is, the antediluvians, whose bodies indeed seemed free, but their spirits were in prison, shut up in the earth as one great condemned cell (exactly parallel to Isaiah 24:22,23 "upon the earth . . . they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison," &c. [just as the fallen angels are judicially regarded as "in chains of darkness," though for a time now at large on the earth, 1 Peter 2:4], where 1 Peter 3:18 has a plain allusion to the flood, "the windows from on high are open," compare Genesis 7:11); from this prison the only way of escape was that preached by Christ in Noah.

Christ, who in our times came in the flesh, in the days of Noah preached in Spirit by Noah to the spirits then in prison (Isaiah 61:1, end, "the Spirit of the Lord God hath sent me to proclaim the opening of the prison to them that are bound"). So in 1 Peter 1:11, "the Spirit of Christ" is said to have testified in the prophets. As Christ suffered even to death by enemies, and was afterwards quickened in virtue of His "Spirit" (or divine nature, Romans 1:3,4, 1 Corinthians 15:45), which henceforth acted in its full energy, the first result of which was the raising of His body (1 Peter 3:21, end) from the prison of the grave and His soul from Hades; so the same Spirit of Christ enabled Noah, amidst reproach and trials, to preach to the disobedient spirits fast bound in wrath. That Spirit in you can enable you also to suffer patiently now, looking for the resurrection deliverance.

Jamieson Fausset Brown Commentary

FaithfulSon
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 128
Location : California, USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17209
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  ChristianLady on Wed 11 Mar 2009, 9:47 pm

Well we must understand the verses and its context, dead know nothing talks of repentance and make people realize that one day they will die and then they will have no chance to repent. In proof of that dead know nothing is a wrong concept, I would also like to quote the incident of Transfiguration.

Transfiguration gives a clear proof of life after death where Moses meets Jesus. What else proof do you need for this?

ChristianLady
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 238
Age : 46
Location : USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17286
Reputation : 11
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Thu 12 Mar 2009, 12:17 am

OK, we will discuss what you bulleted.

If man becomes dust and know nothing then why did Jesus tell that thief, "Today you will be with me in the paradise"? Certainly that thief's body must be lying un-noticed under mounds of earth, but according to Jesus' word he is with Him in paradise - in what form? Was Jesus just pacifying him and making it easy for him to die a miserable and painful death or telling him the truth?

Jesus made the promise to the thief, guaranteeing his entrance into heaven. But you see, It says that To day thou shalt be with me in Paradise. But how could the thief go to Paradise that day if Christ didn't even go to paradise that day! Even the day after he was resurrected, he had not yet ascended to the Father. John 20:17.
In addition, the solution is found in the punctuation. The original greek the New Testament was written in did not have punctuation. Therefore, where to put the comma was subject to the translator of the text, who was doing the best he could. The problem is this: the comma was merely put in the wrong place. Instead of reading: Verily I say unto you, To day thou shalt be with me in Paradise, it should read, Verily I say unto you to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise.
And that solves the problem with the apparent contradiction too, because it is now seen to be consistent with Scripture.

If dead know nothing, then why did King Saul called on the Samuel's spirit?

Well since we know the fundamental principle that Man (Soul) is made of Spirit and Body, we will go by the word and figure this out through the basic principle.

Since Samuel died (which means his spirit and body are gone), then what was it that appeared to Saul?

1 Samuel 28:11-15:
11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

You see, Saul, like many in his time, believed in the idea that when you die you do not really die but go elsewhere. That is why Saul asked the witch to bring up Samuel. So then the witch "brings up Samuel" and describes what she sees. So then "Samuel" starts speaking with Saul.
...But it wasn't really Samuel. The witch brought up what the bible calls a "familiar spirit" (as said in verses 7 and Cool which impersonated Samuel, thus deceiving the foolish witch herself and King Saul!

A lot bring up the example of Samuel to debunk the Sleep state of the dead but once you understand the principle then everything can be explained biblically.

Whom did Jesus talk to in Transfiguration if Moses has become dust and know nothing?

There mere fact that Moses was there talking with Jesus at the transfiguration implies that there had to be an resurrection of Moses. To say otherwise, would be to then violate the principle. Also, how would Moses be there if he wasn't resurrected! Though the Bible doesn't talk about Moses' resurrection in the Old Testament, for it moves on and the writers doubtedly knew, it does hint at it in the New Testament. Jude writes in verse 9:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

We see here that the devil is claiming Moses as his property since he had sinned and was not able to enter Canaan, but Christ wanted to resurrect him. -And instead of bringing a "railing accusation" against the devil (for the devil was the one guilty of making him sin!) he said, The Lord rebuke thee. So we see that Moses was resurrected in order to go to heaven and later be seen at Christ's transfiguration.

Why did the disciples think that they are seeing spirit of Jesus and why did Jesus not correct them saying that dead men have no spirits?

Let us read Luke 24:36-40:


36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

So the disciples thought that they saw a "spirit." Now of course "spirits," as they thought, don't exist. Jesus then told them that he wasn't a "spirit," as they held that idea. You see, Jesus was speaking to them based on their level of understanding. He spoke to them as they viewed a "spirit." But just because Jesus did not at that time and moment say, "Your concept of the spirit is incorrect" does not mean that Christ approved of it or even thought it was right!



God bless and sorry I was sort of busy the past days. Smile

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 12 Mar 2009, 4:53 pm

Dear Common

No problem if you were busy and thank you for taking out time to post your thoughts. I will start with a verse from the Bible and then comment on your explanation of the verses:
Do not go beyond what is written (1 Corn 4:6)
I do not agree with the explanation that you have given on Luke 23:43.

You wrote that the original Greek did not have punctuation. I think that you do not have knowledge of Greek language and who ever you quoted here just tried to convince through weak knowledge of Greek language.

Comma in Greek Language

GreekEnglish
Commaλόγος,word,
Full stopλόγος.word.
Colonλόγος•word:
Questionλόγος;word?


Common wrote:Instead of reading: Verily I say unto you, To day thou shalt be with me in Paradise, it should read, Verily I say unto you to day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise.
I do not think that translator or the scribe made a mistake, I think you conveniently used comma to your advantage and it is pure assumption. Don't you think that if there was a mistake then Paul, Peter or other disciples would have corrected it as they all preached the Gospel? Second, do you think that Paradise is in heavens - what about new earth and new heavens concept of the Bible. Let me quote the Interlinear Greek bible for you:

kai eipen autw, Amhn soi legw, shmeron met' emou esh en tw paradeisw.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Source: Study Light

See also: Online Interlinear Greek Bible

Therefore, you have just based your finding on mere assumption. I have showed you that comma as punctuation was in use in Greek language, so where is the mistake? You are assuming that the translator made a mistake because you want to see the verse speak your way.

Now we see that there was hell and heaven when we read the story of the Rich man, Lazarus and Abraham, do you think Abraham was in hell? Even if you take it as a parable, we read that all the parables of Jesus were related to reality.

Now coming to Samuel's spirit
Common wrote:...But it wasn't really Samuel. The witch brought up what the bible calls a "familiar spirit" (as said in verses 7 and Cool which impersonated Samuel, thus deceiving the foolish witch herself and King Saul!
You quoted 1 Samuel 28:11-15 no where says that it was a familiar spirit of that woman. It specifically talks about the spirit of Samuel and Saul talking with the spirit of Samuel. This is again an assumption on your part. Show me the verse where it says that it was not Samuel's spirit but an evil spirit.
"After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There He was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus. Peter said to Jesus, 'Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters - one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.' (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.) Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: 'This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!' Suddenly, when they looked around, they no longer saw anyone with them except Jesus. As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead" (Mark 9:2-9).
The account of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ as recorded here in Mark (parallel passages are found in Matthew 17:1-3 and Luke 9:28-36) is a demonstration to three witnesses that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be. In all three accounts of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ, we are given the names of the three disciples who accompanied Jesus and who stood as human witnesses to the glory that was Christ's. There were also three heavenly witnesses, Moses, Elijah, and the voice of God from heaven. Therefore, the Old Testament law of three witnesses required to attest to any fact (Deuteronomy 19:15) was satisfied both in earth and in heaven.

The word "transfigured" is a very interesting word. The Greek word is "metamorpho" and it means to transform, literally or figuratively to metamorphose, or to change. The word is a verb that means to change into another form. It also means to change the outside to match the inside. The prefix "meta" means to change and the "morphe" means form. In the case of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ it means to match the outside with the reality of the inside. To change the outward so that it matches the inward reality. Jesus' divine nature was "veiled" (Hebrews 10:20) in human form and the transfiguration was a glimpse of that glory. Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ displayed the Shekinah glory of God incarnate in the Son. The voice of God attesting to the truth of Jesus' Sonship was the second time God's voice was heard. The first time was at Jesus' baptism into His public ministry by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:7; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22).

Therefore, the transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a unique display of His divine character and a glimpse of the glory, which Jesus had before He came to earth in human form. This truth is emphasized for us in a passage in the Apostle Paul's letter to Phillippi. "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form (morphe) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form (morphe) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:5-11).

The Son of God came to earth in the form of a man to be the true servant of God and to gift mankind with the greatest gift ever given, eternal life. The transfiguration of Jesus Christ was a visible sign in the presence of reliable witnesses of the reality of the power of God and the glory, which is Christ Jesus.

Source: All About Jesus Christ




_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 14 Mar 2009, 11:27 pm

No my stance that the original Greek New Testament had no punctuation is not pure assumption. The original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament was written in all capital letters with no spaces and no punctuation. It was written on papyrus fibers. Only later was punctuation and spaces added as people continued to copy and continually edit it to make sure it was authentic.

Paradise will be the new earth and new heavens after sin.

Of course the Interlinear Greek Bible has punctuation. It was written much later when the punctuation was added.

You quoted 1 Samuel 28:11-15 no where says that it was a familiar spirit of that woman. It specifically talks about the spirit of Samuel and Saul talking with the spirit of Samuel. This is again an assumption on your part. Show me the verse where it says that it was not Samuel's spirit but an evil spirit.

1 Samuel 28:7,8 tells us that the witch had a familiar spirit. Since we know that Samuel could not have possibly been alive due to the Principle that Body and Spirit makes up Man and when one or the other goes man ceases to exist, it could not have been Samuel.

I see you gave me an explanation on the Transfiguration of Jesus. I had no questions or problems with the Transfiguration, so it really wasn't needed but thanks anyways.


God bless you.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sun 15 Mar 2009, 7:17 am



Source: Wikipedia
Common wrote:The original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament was written in all capital letters with no spaces and no punctuation. It was written on papyrus fibers. Only later was punctuation and spaces added as people continued to copy and continually edit it to make sure it was authentic.
First of all you must be aware that punctuation was never standard of translation or transliteration from Papri manuscripts.

The Greek text as presented is based on what biblical textual critics refer to as the "critical text". The critical text is an eclectic text compiled by a committee that examines a large number of manuscripts in order to weigh which reading is thought closest to the lost original. They use a number of factors to help determine probable readings, such as the date of the witness (earlier is usually better), the geographical distribution of a reading, and possibly accidental or intentional corruptions. In the book, a large number of textual variants, or differences between manuscripts, are noted in the critical apparatus—the extensive footnotes that distinguish the Novum Testamentum Graece from other Greek New Testaments. Wikipedia

Even if the original greek manuscripts had no punctuation, what difference it makes? Secondly, it was written in capital letters because it was more formal style of writing known as Book-hand versus Cursive writing used in formal writing.

I fail to understand that if New Testament was written in scriptio Continua what difference it makes. Thai, Japanese and Chinese are written this way and they find no error in the old or new manuscripts.

Before the advent of the codex (book), Latin and Greek script was written on scrolls. Reading continuous script on a scroll was more akin to reading a musical score than reading text. The reader would typically already have memorized the text through an instructor, had memorized where the breaks were, and the reader almost always read aloud, usually to an audience in a kind of reading performance, using the text as a cue sheet. Organizing the text to make it more rapidly ingested (through punctuation) was not needed and eventually the current system of rapid silent reading for information replaced the older slower performance declaimed aloud for dramatic effect. (Wikipedia)

As I said your reasoning is based on assumption and you must understand that you are talking of a manuscript that did not have modern day techniques and even if you read Koran in Arabic language, it is now not a day to day language. If you know Koranic Arabic, you cannot use it in the streets of Saudi Arabia. Does it make any difference? The only difference it will make is the choice of words on the part of the translator.

Samuel's story continued below

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sun 15 Mar 2009, 8:11 am

1 Samuel 28

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. (Verse 7)

Saul asks to look for a woman who works as a medium or in other words the spirit who is in control of that woman may help Saul.

So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night, he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name" (Verse 8)

What was Saul's demand from the woman with a familiar spirit?
  1. Consult a spirit for me.
  2. [color=red]Bring up for me the one I name


Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" (verse 11)

If the woman wanted to use the spirit whom she knew, why did she ask Saul, whom she should bring up for him?

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" (verse 12)

If the woman knew the spirit and was in control of that spirit then why was she afraid to see Samuel or the spirit - wasn't she familiar to that spirit?

The woman said, "I see a spirit" coming up out of ground."...An old man wearing a robe us coming up." she said. (verses 13-14)

The woman could not recognize her familiar spirit?

Who recognizes the spirit
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. (verse 14)

It was not the woman with the familiar spirit who recognized Samuel but it was Saul himself.

What was reason for calling on Samuel's spirit?
Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me. and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do (verse 15)

After receiving no answer from God, either through Prophets or dreams, he calls on Samuel. Now as my knowledge goes and as the Bible also says that satan deceives but if it was an evil spirit then why did he tell the truth to Saul?

Samuel said,"Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given to one of your neighbors - to David. Because you did not obey the LORD to carry our his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD... " (verse16-19)

[color=blue]Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words (verse 20)

Although large part of Book of 1 Samuel was written by Samuel (1 Samuel 10:25) himself but later parts of 1 & 2 Samuel were written by Gad and Nathan (1 Chronicles 29:29). All these were prophets and were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

What I fail to understand that people know more than Holy Spirit and the prophets. If Saul consulted an evil spirit, why did Gad or Nathan under Holy Spirit write it was Samuel's spirit?

Now coming to Genesis 2:7, The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living being.

Did God make breath of life from dust too? One more point why did God breathe the breath of life in to the nostrils of man? The reality is that when a man dies, breath of life leaves the body from the nostrils too. Check medical reports on this.

And on personal experience God has glorified himself through me before others and I have cast out all kinds of demons and evil spirits, therefore, I can tell you about evil spirits and I have known people in my life turning into evil spirits after death.

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  ChristianLady on Mon 16 Mar 2009, 4:41 pm

Common wrote:Unless God intervenes by some special resurrection, you are in the ground.

Let me start by this, What ARE we?

Man's body is made up of DUST. God made our form out of dust. Genesis 2:7.

Now look at this, which many overlook. When God made our body, were we alive? NO. We were just dust, how can we be alive? We can't. The thing that made man COME ALIVE was that breath of life, that spark of energy that makes us who we are. So we see that body without the breath of life can't exist. And that breath of life without a body will NOT function either. What will that breath be going into? Nothing. Genesis 2:7
Daniel we know her stance on Genesis 2:7, I would like to ask your stance on Genesis 2:7 in detail. Why I ask this is that Common put her thought on Genesis 2:7 and you are disagreeing on her stance. Instead of going totally out of context, let us discuss Genesis 2:7.

ChristianLady
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 238
Age : 46
Location : USA
Registration date : 2007-07-16
Points : 17286
Reputation : 11
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Wed 18 Mar 2009, 1:54 am

Even if the original greek manuscripts had no punctuation, what difference it makes? Secondly, it was written in capital letters because it was more formal style of writing known as Book-hand versus Cursive writing used in formal writing.

I fail to understand that if New Testament was written in scriptio Continua what difference it makes. Thai, Japanese and Chinese are written this way and they find no error in the old or new manuscripts.

My statement on the Capital letters was just an added fact. It is not there to influence my argument. The error is not in the manuscripts. That is not my point. My point is that the translators of the New Testament from Greek into English, when putting in the punctuation, made a mistake in putting the comma of Luke 23:43 in the wrong place.

You see, how could the thief go to Paradise the same day as Christ if Christ didn't go to Paradise until 3 days after his death? Jesus said to Mary that "I am not yet ascended to my Father." --This is all leading to my point.

If Jesus did not yet ascend to heaven, how could the thief be there if Jesus wasn't there yet?

Concerning the Greek and punctuation:

As originally written, the Greek was without punctuation. The following is Luke 23:43 in Greek and English:

Greek: AMEN SOI LEGO SEMERON MET EMOU ESE EN TO PARADESO
Literal English: Truly to you I say today with me you will be in the paradise.

The adverb Semeron, "today," stands between 2 clauses which read, literally, "Truly to you I say" and "with me you will be in the paradise."
In the construction of the sentence, it is impossible to determine whether the adverb "today" modifies "I say" or "you will be." --But because we KNOW that Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he died on the cross, we know the translators put the comma in the wrong place when adding punctuation. The comma belongs AFTER the word Today.



Saul, like many in his day, believed that when you die, you don't really die, but your spirit goes into another realm. That is why he asked the woman to bring up Samuel's spirit. She is called a woman that has a familiar spirit because the "spirit" that one may enquire of is like the person who really did die. However, it is not. It is a deception. For we know that the "spirit," which is actually the Breath of Life, cannot survive without the body.
Obviously the spirit was there to deceive and it did deceive. It deceived the woman who actually thought she was bringing up a "person's spirit" and it deceived Saul.
You were talking about the woman not being familiar to her own spirit, but like I said before, it is not really a spirit she is familiar with, but an evil spirit that comes in disguise as the person that is supposedly being "brought up."

Now coming to Genesis 2:7, The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living being.

Did God make breath of life from dust too? One more point why did God breathe the breath of life in to the nostrils of man? The reality is that when a man dies, breath of life leaves the body from the nostrils too. Check medical reports on this.

No God did not make the Breath of Life from dust. If you read the passage the dust is what is used to form man and the breath of life is the life-giving spark from God that makes man alive. There is a difference.

Lastly, you said:

And on personal experience God has glorified himself through me before others and I have cast out all kinds of demons and evil spirits, therefore, I can tell you about evil spirits and I have known people in my life turning into evil spirits after death.

...and I have known people in my life turning into evil spirits after death.


How would you know what they turn into after they are dead? They are DEAD. You cannot see what the dead are doing (in reality they're doing nothing because they're dead). So how would you know what they turn into? Not only is that a very questionable statement, it contradicts he principle that we already layed down in Genesis 2:7.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved What is man

Post  Irv Everett on Wed 18 Mar 2009, 1:57 pm

What is man, this topic of discussion has taken us to and through much debate and Holy Scripture. The question is a simple one but the answers twist and turn us in many different directions. Most of the answers are dependent upon the context, content, verbal usage, material or spiritual aspect, etc… for reason and interpretation.

I too, have a variety of answers to this simple question; but there are no set of rules or guidelines other than man’s substance so I must engage the question in my own experiences or should I say illusions; for usually what we accept becomes our truth, whether true or false.

So, what is man; maybe the better question has already been asked; what is man that God should notice. That question lends itself to better interpretation. Yet while meditating upon the subject, I found that my answers to this simple question, quite frankly, do not matter. For this reason, God is in control! God can do and will do what ever He wants. And if he wants you or me to know nothing and lie in the dust of the earth, He will. Consequently, if He wants to take us up in a whirl wind, He will.



Common, I don’t know who you are (that is your person) and for the most part I don’t know exactly who I am, but because God loves us, Jesus died for us. So does it really matter, the substance of man; as long as he is walking with God?

The main thing we should be concerned with is doing the will of the Father. So, in my illusions, my truths, my interpretation, whether true or false; I believe God wants lost souls saved more than hearing man’s thoughts on His Holy Word.

Certainly, I do understand that each of us has a specific job or duty to perform as a member of the body; but all are given the commission to spread the gospel. So based on Holy Scripture and viewing current events; should we not concentrate on lost souls rather than getting marred in a quagmire of Biblical interpretation or punctuation.

As an example I offer this question; I wonder about the height of Jesus; how tall or how short Jesus actually was? I have pondered this question ever since I read Luke 19 1-3. This is where Jesus is entering Jericho and Zacchaeus sought to see him. Luke 19:3 says “and he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little in stature”. Obviously I would believe the Scripture is talking about Zacchaeus (not based on the song) but I am pretty sure someone else could argue the point in another direction. Do you see the quagmire? Is it possible that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise?

You are welcome to agree or disagree. Blessings to you, Common, Irv

Irv Everett
VIP

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 305
Age : 58
Location : Birmingham, Alabama USA
Profession : I'm a child of the KING
Hobbies : Loving my wife, son and grandbabies; Praising the Lord for HIS mercy and grace!
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-12-31
Points : 16483
Reputation : 38
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Wed 18 Mar 2009, 3:15 pm

Common wrote:How would you know what they turn into after they are dead? They are DEAD. You cannot see what the dead are doing (in reality they're doing nothing because they're dead). So how would you know what they turn into? Not only is that a very questionable statement, it contradicts he principle that we already layed down in Genesis 2:7.
Sorry Common, I do not have time to comment in detail but I will do it in a day or so. I just wanted to answer your question in a counter question.

Question
Have you ever seen your heart physically? Just answer in YES or NO.

I will answer in detail, but first you need to answer my counter question so that we move on to the topic. Remember, you need to answer in simple YES or NO.

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Wed 18 Mar 2009, 11:29 pm

Dear Irv,

Common, I don’t know who you are (that is your person) and for the most part I don’t know exactly who I am, but because God loves us, Jesus died for us. So does it really matter, the substance of man; as long as he is walking with God?

For one to walk with God is the most important thing. We were just discussing a particular point, which is about the substance of man.

Certainly, I do understand that each of us has a specific job or duty to perform as a member of the body; but all are given the commission to spread the gospel. So based on Holy Scripture and viewing current events; should we not concentrate on lost souls rather than getting marred in a quagmire of Biblical interpretation or punctuation.

Please do not misunderstand what I am doing. I am not debating on tiddles and bits here with Biblical linguistics. I was just showing Daniel about the Greek and no punctuation.

I think it is important to show others the Gospel but I also believe other biblical issues are welcome for discussion, as is one of the purposes for this forum. But thank you and I see your point and I hope that you see mine as well.


Daniel, no I have never seen my heart physically.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Wed 25 Mar 2009, 4:00 pm

Common wrote:How would you know what they turn into after they are dead? They are DEAD. You cannot see what the dead are doing (in reality they're doing nothing because they're dead). So how would you know what they turn into? Not only is that a very questionable statement, it contradicts he principle that we already layed down in Genesis 2:7.
I asked you a counter question regarding your question
Waqar Daniel wrote:Have you ever seen your heart physically? Just answer in YES or NO.
Thank you for answering the question and your answer was
Common wrote:Daniel, no I have never seen my heart physically.
Dear Common, if you have never seen your heart physically, then it does not mean that it is not there. Similarly when I say I have seen people turning in to evil spirits it does not mean that if you do not know this, so it does not exist. There are lots of things you still need to learn.

Now let us talk about Genesis 2:7 because you put it as basis of your theory
Common wrote:So...man, a soul, can ONLY be alive when body and spirit are together. One cannot live without the other. Let me clarify.

BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = MAN (SOUL)

So we see that if man has a body and no breath, he can't live. ...While if man has the breath of life and no body, he can't live.
And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Genesis 2:7)

Now let us see the creation of man:
  1. Dust
  2. Breath of life

We know that God took the dust and formed Adam but where did the Breath of life come from? He never created "Breath of life" because it is obvious that it came from God
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of of the Almighty gives me life (Job 33:4)
If we look into the Hebrew language:

u·iphch
and·he-is-blowing

b·aphi·u
in·nostrils-of·him

What did God blow into the nostrils of Adam? His Spirit and what is "His Spirit" known as - Holy Spirit. Now if I put your theory that if man dies, his spirit also dies then it would become an unpardonable blasphemy.

If we look at Genesis 1:26 God created man in His own image and likeness. Image we know but what is likeness?

Genesis 1:27 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of
the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth


There are two questions that are to be considered here:
  1. Likeness
  2. Dominion
. To answer this question, again I would go to;

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Why did Spirit of God hover over the waters of the earth? It had dominion over things. Did God bless the dust to have dominion over everything or God blessed Adam after breathing His Spirit into him? The answer is when Adam became a living soul. Therefore, God did not bless the dust but the spirit that dwells in us.
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)
Do you believe that paradise is in Heavens
Common wrote:You see, how could the thief go to Paradise the same day as Christ if Christ didn't go to Paradise until 3 days after his death? Jesus said to Mary that "I am not yet ascended to my Father." --This is all leading to my point.
This is no leading point as you say. Garden of Eden was placed on earth and not in heavens, man was designed to live on earth and not in heavens.

Dead know nothing
I have already given you proof that when Jesus died, He knew what to do. Samuel's spirit knew. You called Samuel's spirit misleading spirit whereas, Samuel reminded Saul of his evil.

If we look at satan's deception;
"You shall surely not die" the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5)
Satan always lies and uses deception and we can see another incident that is recorded in the Bible.

We read in the case of King Jehoshaphat who did not want to consult Micaiah because he never prophesied anything good for him and reminded him that he had strayed away from God and His commands. But he never listened to the prophet
And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. (1 Kings 22:22)
Now this spirit told him opposite to what was to happen.

Dear Common, satan never directs to God, but in Samuel's case, we read a totally opposite prophesy.
Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. (1 Samuel 16-19)
Didn't his prophesy come true? How can be Samuel's spirit be a lying or misleading spirit? If it would have been an evil spirit, it would have surely told him that God was with him and he would succeed. Don't you think so?
Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. (1 Samuel 16:14)
Already an evil spirit was tormenting Saul and was with him the question here is why didn't he consult that spirit? Because evil spirits never guide but mislead others.
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8)
Bible has given us the personality of satan. Now the question to you Common is, did the Samuel's spirit misguide Saul - Didn't it take place what Samuel's spirit spoke of? And the last question - where does it say that the spirit that talked with Saul was an evil spirit?

Your other responses are weak and I do not want to repeat my comments. You cannot even explain the incident of "Transfiguration". Moreover, if John The Baptist is Elijah, did the spirit of Elijah come into the body of John the Baptist or did he descend from heavens to be called John the Baptist?

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  annlovesjesus on Wed 25 Mar 2009, 10:13 pm

Daniel you have made some good points here. Many believe that after death, dead know nothing, but I qould quote the story of Abraham, beggar and the rich man. All three of them were under the ground and the spirit of Samuel also came from the ground and Jesus also descended in to the ground to free the prisoners. It is interesting to note that all these prisoners included who had died long ago. They were to be reconciled with Jesus as we are and will be. Second most important point is dead know nothing is followed by that sinners will not be brought to life. This is all deception and is no where found to be in the Bible.

Regarding Samuel's spirit, the witch performed necromancy and in necromancy spirits of dead are seeked for answers. The witch or wizard who performs this act uses one spirit who is in their control to call the spirit of the dead.

If dead become dust and there is no spirit then why this art is still prevailing after thousands of years?

I believe that it does not matter what you believe in, I mean if dead know nothing or if they know, the most important thing is that we must all die in Jesus and must be raised up in Jesus.

annlovesjesus
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 58
Age : 46
Location : Australia
Registration date : 2008-09-27
Points : 15014
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Fri 27 Mar 2009, 9:10 pm

Hi you guys, nice to talk again, I know it's been a while.


Dear Common, if you have never seen your heart physically, then it does not mean that it is not there. Similarly when I say I have seen people turning in to evil spirits it does not mean that if you do not know this, so it does not exist. There are lots of things you still need to learn.

Daniel, I know that just because I have not seen my heart does not mean it is not there. I knew you were coming at me with that, however, there is not biblical basis that some people turn into evil spirits after death. You also said:

What did God blow into the nostrils of Adam? His Spirit and what is "His Spirit" known as - Holy Spirit. Now if I put your theory that if man dies, his spirit also dies then it would become an unpardonable blasphemy.

You see Daniel, the one of the problems there is, I never said that man's spirit dies when he dies, because it does not. It goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21). Secondly, I see that you are equating the Holy Spirit with the Breath of Life. You should not, for they are different. A man can have the Breath of Life but not the Holy Spirit. Likewise a man can have the Breath of Life and the Holy Spirit.

So there was not really a refutation here, because I did not state those things. It is quite simple and Genesis 2:7 is way too clear for anyone not to understand. Man became a living soul. Spirit and body make up man. Man with just a body cannot exist without the breath of life. Likewise, Man with the Breath of Life cannot exist without a body. Therefore, as your whole reasoning on Samuel's "spirit" is based on the perversion of the Genesis 2:7 principle, it collapses. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone by my strong use of words.



Hope to hear from you soon and God bless.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Wed 01 Apr 2009, 7:29 pm

Common wrote:Therefore, as your whole reasoning on Samuel's "spirit" is based on the perversion of the Genesis 2:7 principle, it collapses. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone by my strong use of words.
Actually I did not mind, if you referred it to me. As I said before, if you do not understand or know something, it does not mean it does not exist. And I also said you need to learn many things yet.
Common wrote:Spirit and body make up man. Man with just a body cannot exist without the breath of life. Likewise, Man with the Breath of Life cannot exist without a body.
You have made your own theory and you want everyone to believe in it. If I use your theory then, after Jesus' death, the Bible says He went into the depths of the earth to release the spirits in the prison becomes all false because as you say, without body the spirit cannot exist and you also claim Dead know nothing.

However, Bible clearly shows us that after dying on the cross, Jesus went to release the spirits in the prison. The Bible does not say souls or bodies but spirits and that too before resurrection;

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18-19)

Who these spirits were whom Jesus preached to? The answer lies in the story of Abraham, beggar and the rich man. Where were they? In the depths of the earth - Where did Jesus go to preach? In the depths of the earth.

Depths of the earth had good spirits and yet evil spirits as we see in the case of Abraham and beggar. They were good spirits and the rich man is shown as evil spirit for he did not care about the word of God. Therefore how can you say that;
Common wrote:Daniel, I know that just because I have not seen my heart does not mean it is not there. I knew you were coming at me with that, however, there is not biblical basis that some people turn into evil spirits after death.
I do not assume and make my own theories. I quoted you Bible and several references and on the other hand you came up with few totally inappropriate references from the Bible.

You stated
Common wrote:I never said that man's spirit dies when he dies, because it does not.
If my memory is still working and if I remember properly, I think you wrote this;
Common wrote:Now that we have that established, let us focus on the last part of Genesis 2:7. "And man became a living soul."
So...man, a soul, can ONLY be alive when body and spirit are together. One cannot live without the other. Let me clarify.

BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = MAN (SOUL)
Why are you refuting your own words. You wrote and claimed that when a person dies, there is no spirit.

Regarding the spirit of Samuel, I said that Gad and Nathan never referred to as a deceiving spirit rather called it the spirit of Samuel. So I believe in God's word and I believe that it was spirit of Samuel and I also gave you comparison that evil spirits lie and deceive and quoted relevant references from the Bible. Yet the spirit of Samuel never deceived Saul rather prophesied his doom and it happened so.

Gad and Nathan wrote and recorded the incident under Holy Spirit's influence, and I do not believe that there is any confusion here.

And the words of the LORD
are flawless like a silver
refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times (Ps 12:6)


Now don't put it on translators of the Bible that they made a mistake. The Bible clearly says
for God is not a God of confusion...(1 Cor 14:33)
Lastly, you wrote
Common wrote:Secondly, I see that you are equating the Holy Spirit with the Breath of Life. You should not, for they are different. A man can have the Breath of Life but not the Holy Spirit. Likewise a man can have the Breath of Life and the Holy Spirit.
I believe that, this is what the Bible says and I did not make it up on my own. Here is the reference again;
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of of the Almighty gives me life (Job 33:4)
Either Job lied, or Moses made a mistake in recording this under Holy Spirit or you are wrong here. You pick the answer yourself that suits you.

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 04 Apr 2009, 5:02 am

You have made your own theory and you want everyone to believe in it. If I use your theory then, after Jesus' death, the Bible says He went into the depths of the earth to release the spirits in the prison becomes all false because as you say, without body the spirit cannot exist and you also claim Dead know nothing.

However, Bible clearly shows us that after dying on the cross, Jesus went to release the spirits in the prison. The Bible does not say souls or bodies but spirits and that too before resurrection;

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:18-19)

Did we not already discuss this Daniel? That is, with Jesus going to preach unto the spirits in prison?


I said:
Lets look at 1st Peter 3:18 and break it down.

For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,

Jesus Christ who was sinless suffered on the cross for sinners

...that he might bring us to God

Through the death of Jesus we have been reconciled to God

...being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the Spirit

He died the death all we as mortals must die but was raised by the Holy Spirit

...by which he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

So that is what we are mainly focusing on.

The same Holy Spirit by Noah preached unto those who were prisoners of sin.

The "captives" in Luke and Isaiah, and the "prisoners" in 1st Peter are both referring to then living people in bondage to sin - captives and prisoners of Satan surely, but not disembodied spirits in Hell/hades/limbo. It is the Gospel message that frees you from that captivity to sin!!!

Moving on, you said:

Why are you refuting your own words. You wrote and claimed that when a person dies, there is no spirit.

I said that man, a soul, can only be alive when body and spirit are together. When one dies, their spirit does not die. Look at the words, I did not say that the spirit dies. As a matter of fact, when man dies, his body decays and returns to dust while his spirit goes to God for the time being (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21) to be given back in either the first or second resurrections, which ever one we come up in.



And let’s look at Job 33:4. It says that the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) made him; and then says that “the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” So the first part describes man being made in his bodily form and then the second part talks about how the Breath of Life went in and made his body come alive. “The breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

The Spirit of God is being equated to the Almighty, that is, being God, which made us and gives us life. There is a distinction made between the Spirit of God and breath of life.

So I have a question for you Daniel, do you believe that the Breath of Life is the same as the Holy Spirit?
 
I will answer your argument about Lazarus and the rich man later.


God bless

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Mon 06 Apr 2009, 6:57 am

Common wrote:The "captives" in Luke and Isaiah, and the "prisoners" in 1st Peter are both referring to then living people in bondage to sin - captives and prisoners of Satan surely, but not disembodied spirits in Hell/hades/limbo. It is the Gospel message that frees you from that captivity to sin!!!
Regarding 1 Peter 3:18, you never answered my question rather you quoted John 20:17. It is not the answer because you quoted an incident that took place after resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I am talking of the hour Jesus died and the time the stone was rolled away from His grave. 1 Peter 3:18 talks of that time and I gave you proof of Abraham, Lazarus and the beggar.

You have really got confused because first your stance was different and now it is different. Let me show you your shift:

Post # 1
Common wrote:So we see that if man has a body and no breath, he can't live. ...While if man has the breath of life and no body, he can't live.
Over here you maintained and believed that there is no spirit when a person dies.

Post # 2
Common wrote:If his Body is not there he ceases to exist. Likewise, if he does not have a Spirit, he is not alive.
Here also you maintained that when a person dies, the life ceases to exist.

Post # 3
Common wrote:The first error here is that man does not HAVE a soul. Therefore there is NO soul turning into a spirit. Genesis 2:7.
You maintained your stance that life ceases to exist when we die and you wrote this when I said that when a man dies, the soul changes the medium and turns into spirit.

Post # 4
Common wrote:Since we know the fundamental principle that Man is Spirit and Body,
Maintaining your stance you shifted the discussion in to another swing by saying that many believe that Soul is immortal, whereas, before this no where I said that soul is immortal.

Post # 5Commenting on the points I raised up, you still claimed your view. The interesting point to note here is that when I say that a verse is Figure of Speech, you reject it but you can put the whole Bible under Figure of Speech.

So cutting the long story short, in your last reply, you shifted your belief by saying
Common wrote:I said that man, a soul, can only be alive when body and spirit are together. When one dies, their spirit does not die.
Aren't you contradicting yourself?
Common wrote:BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = MAN (SOUL)
Now coming to your question, did I go beyond what the scripture says when I quoted Job 33:4? The Bible says the same thing
Then God said, "Let us make man in own, in our likeness...(Genesis 1:26)"
Who is us here? And what is Likeness?

I am waiting for your comments on Abraham, Lazarus and beggar. Do remember, what you believed in first and what you believe now.
Common wrote:I said that man, a soul, can only be alive when body and spirit are together. When one dies, their spirit does not die.





_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved What is Man?

Post  kp1 on Fri 10 Apr 2009, 12:52 am

I understand man to be a once born child of darkness ruled by the world, the powers of darkness and Satan until God the Son (Jesus) gives us his eternal life after God the Father gives us the knowlegde of who Jesus really is! He did this to me on August 5th 2004 while I was a convinced atheist!

He entered my thoughts and told me that he did not like me blaming him for everything I did wrong to myself or blame him for what the world was doing wrong to itself! this was by his choice, not mine! Then he told me that he wanted me to learn and define the original languages that he inspired the apostles & the prophets to write his word in. I can not take any credit for what he has shown me to be true in his word. It has been through his guidance in the Holy Spirit that has led me to what is true in his word. This is my testimony and truth of how God revealed his Son and Himself to me.

Now, referring to your interpretation of what man is! I must disagree... In Genesis 2:7 in the original Hebrew language, it says that Adam (not man!) became a breathing creature after God, through his Son Jesus (in sirit), breathed HIS LIFE into his nostrils. The word that was used for (breathing creature) in hebrew was NEPHESH! What made Adam different from all other men born of the womb was that he had God life in him. And the Bible specifically says that God's Life has no beginng and no end! (ETERNAL LIFE!)

After Adam ate from the tree that God told him not to eat from; his body had sin in it. And the sin is what caused his physical death. But the Eternal Life that was in his body, that belonged to God, went back to be with God! After all: It was his life that he Breathed into Adam. Now before Adam died over 900 yrs after this event; Adam and Eve produced children without GOD LIFE in them. The sin in their body and they themselves could not produce God Life in their children. Hence the reason Jesus said that a man must be Born Again into God life (ZOE In The Greek Language!) in order to enter his kingdom of heaven.

This is the great mystery that Paul made known to those who have been Born Again and are God's children belonginG to God! So, yes these bodies of flesh will go back to the dust. But the life of God in those he gives it to, will go back to be with God. And the (Psuche) 1st Life that we are originally born into; God will destroy, if he has not already. The story of Lazarus and the rich man was told by Jesus himself and is a true story that reveals that there is life after death in the physical form. But there is more than one kind of life that exists. Only one kind of life is God Life! All the rest is not eternal but has a beginning & can be everlasting unless God chooses to put it to death.

This is complicated but true. He will never destroy his own Life that He gives to those that are forknown and predestinated to be comformed to his own likeness and image as Adam once was here on earth. Now I am convinced that he will one day fashion a body like unto His own for this life of His that is now in this physical body that it dwells in. You can find this written by Paul to the Philippians in chapter 3 verse 21... Think these words over & ask God to show you where it is to be true in his word through the Holy Spirit! I do not know you to be a brother in Christ because I have no testimony of how God has shown to you, his Son to be one with himself and the creator of all life as we know it and do not know it! I pray that he shows you what he has shown me... I find peace in knowing that I belong to God the Son (Jesus) and God the Father. I'd rather belong to them, than to Satan as I once did, before God changed that in me.

Sincerely, a child of God, Kenny.

kp1
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2
Age : 54
Location : Fort collins, Co
Registration date : 2009-02-16
Points : 14268
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 10 Apr 2009, 8:54 am

Dear Kenny

I agree with you and I also agree that the story narrated by Jesus about Abraham, Lazarus and rich man is a true story. If we look at all the parables narrated in the four Gospels, we realize that this is the only story where we find names.

If you are asking about the author of the post, she uses Common as her ID and she is a young girl with a lot of zeal, knowledge and a keen interest to know more about God. I respect her a lot and she is a very nice person as I know her.

You can always click on the name and look at the profile otherwise, on the right hand side of the article, profile of the poster is shown with their age, location and gender.

Dear Kenny, I thank Father that He had made you known the path of life and have given you shield of victory and sustains you with His right hand. My prayer for you is that may Father guide and protect you with His love and truth always and help you win souls through the wisdom given by Him, in Jesus name. AMEN.


_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re What is Man?

Post  kp1 on Sat 11 Apr 2009, 4:16 pm

Waqar Daniel,Thankyou for you response. I'm suprised that you agree with my previous statement. Not many of God's children understand this to be true. I believe that the structure that man has built around the church(THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN AND HAVE HIS LIFE IN THEM) have been affected through triditional practices & teachings, which are the cause of their ignorance. We have set up a place of worship to be structured around mans needs instead of what it is truly meant for. We are supposed to be there for God and only God. To worship Him & his Son Jesus. To bless them. To Glorify them. To show our submission to them. The word worship in english was translated from the words "SHACHAH" in Hebrew & PROSKUNETES in Greek. Broken down literally; they both mean to bow down, crouch or fall down, humbly begging or kiss like a dog licking his master's hand. I rarely see this act of his children in a structured facility of worship! As a matter of fact I see some places of worship no different than a club or pub only without the alcohol... I love my brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus. But I am longing for the day that I start to see them worship God in a sincere & accurate way. This is why we are finding more and more of God's children outside the structure and worshiping him in small groups in our homes. I, for one, am one of them. As for winning souls?; God has already done this. After all; God's word does say that we are foreknown & pedestinated... You can find this in Romans 8:29&30. So, one should conclude that God knew us before we even came to existance. He knew that we would come to existance because he wanted it and what he wants, he gets. So, to save souls as you call it, is of no need. By the way, I call it (Breathing Creatures) or the Hebrew word Nephesh! God through His Son Jesus has already made his decision of who are His and who are not! This is hard for us to except because we (being one with God) love his creation and all men and women. And we do not want them to die an eternal death! But we must trust him to know who and who is not going to be in His kingdom with him. Nine times out of ten; when I communicate this tho those who are my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, they get pretty upset with me. But Jesus did say that the word of God is like a two edged sword and would cause strife even among our own family in the flesh! We must be careful who we allow to teach our own.(Those who are God's!) We no longer belong to the world. We are bought & paid for by the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ! And we need to Ask God the Father & God the Son (Jesus) to help us to walk in the spirit, Not the flesh! Until he changes this vile body, His life is in and Fashions it unto His own Glorious body.You can find this quoted in Philippians 3:21. May God & Jesus bless you always with his will and good pleasure while you are here on this earth. Sincerely, a Son Of God! Kenny Very Happy

kp1
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2
Age : 54
Location : Fort collins, Co
Registration date : 2009-02-16
Points : 14268
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 11 Apr 2009, 8:57 pm

Dear Kenny

There is nothing to be amazed as majority of people/peoples who call themselves as believers want God to change according to their wishes. Many of them have never experienced God so when you talk of God they do not know Him for they know of God who is sketched by the parameters they have made.

So this is my prayer that instead of people using their intelligence to know God, should use intelligence of God to know Him. They must pray as I have learnt so many things through prayers. I always pray to God to make me understand His word so that I can use it in my life and live a life pleasing to Him and I believe He helps me.

Thank you for your remarks. God bless you




_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 25 Apr 2009, 1:02 am

This has been a long talking and I will begin to close it down but I do want to make one thing clear. That thing is that I was not contradicting myself.

I will requote:

Post # 1
Common wrote:So we see that if man has a body and no breath, he can't live. ...While if man has the breath of life and no body, he can't live.
Over here you maintained and believed that there is no spirit when a person dies.

Post # 2
Common wrote:If his Body is not there he ceases to exist. Likewise, if he does not have a Spirit, he is not alive.
Here also you maintained that when a person dies, the life ceases to exist.

Post # 3
You maintained your stance that life ceases to exist whe
Common wrote:The first error here is that man does not HAVE a soul. Therefore there is NO soul turning into a spirit. Genesis 2:7.

n we die
and you wrote this when I said that when a man dies, the soul changes the medium and turns into spirit.

Post # 4
Common wrote:Since we know the fundamental principle that Man is Spirit and Body,
Maintaining your stance you shifted the discussion in to another swing by saying that many believe that Soul is immortal, whereas, before this no where I said that soul is immortal.

Perhaps by my use of words it appears that I am contradicting but I'm not. Let me clarify my belief.

Man is made up of body and spirit (breath of life). When man dies, he ceases to exist. So where does his Body go? His body decays.

Where does his Breath of Life go? To God. -Ecclesiastes 3:18-21.

I will write on the Rich Man and Lazarus as soon as possible but going on the computer is not as easy as before because my computer is down (perhaps you know or not) and plus I also have my Forum to attend to. God bless you and talk to you all soon.

Also: Thank you kp1 for your input and you too Daniel for your positivity.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Johntheservant on Tue 28 Apr 2009, 4:34 pm

I am sorry but you are too confused. This is no theological discussion, I believe this discussion is fruitless.

I have gone through all the posts and no where I believe the members who do not agree with your view point have ever mentioned that after dying the dead body comes out of the grave and roam the earth like zombies.

Now as you claim that after death the spirit of a person lives then to me the Soul never dies.

Johntheservant
Christian Talk Member

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 87
Age : 35
Location : USA
Registration date : 2008-12-14
Points : 14652
Reputation : 4
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Thu 07 May 2009, 12:49 am

Yes John we all have the right to our opinion.

Well I am done discussing on this topic. Daniel you can go ahead and lock it or whatever you need to do.

God bless.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved What Is Man?

Post  Irv Everett on Fri 08 May 2009, 4:43 pm

Common, the purpose of man is to know God, to love God, and to serve God.



I, thank you for your topic of discussion; but your ending is displeasing. From your last comment, I get the impression you are dismissing Daniel, his wisdom and his knowledge of the Bible. My impression is one of arrogance and rudeness toward his comments of help in your growth and understanding. We are here to help one another. We work together to find the correct answers, whether we agree or disagree with the findings.



Here are five basic principles of Bible study:

  • Better understanding comes through time and spiritual growth.
  • Make sure your heart has the right attitude.
  • Know that individual words are key in proper understanding.
  • Never base doctrine on a single Scripture.
  • Understand the proper context of the Scripture.


I hope these principles help in your spiritual journey to finding the truth;

Blessings to you and your family, Irv

Irv Everett
VIP

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 305
Age : 58
Location : Birmingham, Alabama USA
Profession : I'm a child of the KING
Hobbies : Loving my wife, son and grandbabies; Praising the Lord for HIS mercy and grace!
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-12-31
Points : 16483
Reputation : 38
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sat 09 May 2009, 8:03 pm

Common, the purpose of man is to know God, to love God, and to serve God.

Amen Irv. You speak wisely.

From your last comment, I get the impression you are dismissing Daniel, his wisdom and his knowledge of the Bible. My impression is one of arrogance and rudeness toward his comments of help in your growth and understanding. We are here to help one another. We work together to find the correct answers, whether we agree or disagree with the findings.

I am not dismissing Daniel Irv. I have read his posts and it is was a well discussion. Indeed as brothers and sisters we are to help each other and pray for each other because we each have a journey to make and sins to overcome. And I loved how you put it:

We are here to help one another. We work together to find the correct answers, whether we agree or disagree with the findings.

Thank you for that ushering in of the Christian spirit Irv but I do wonder how I was being rude to him? It is not my intent to be rude to any user so if you can show me I will sincerely apologize to him.


Thank you and God bless all of you here on CHRISTIAN-TALK.

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Littlelamb on Sun 10 May 2009, 11:06 am

Common, I know that you may be truly seeking to understand the WORD. Understanding must be accompanied, by the HOLY SPIRIT guiding you. For in the WORD, and through the HOLY SPIRIT GUIDANCE, we will find WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING. The HOLY SPIRIT also gives us DISCERNMENT.


According the WORD, found in the Gospel of Luke, JESUS gave us this TRUTH, about the spirit being alive, after death, of the physcial body:

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

No conversation can take place, if indeed the Spirit of man, is dead, or no longer exists after the physical body dies.

Given, in all TRUTH: We must align ourselves 100% with the WORD, through the HOLY SPIRIT GUIDANCE or it has becomes false. What is false, is a ploy of the enemy to water down the WORD, and deny the FULL MEANING on any given subject, from the WORD.

The BIBLE says to STUDY to shew thyself approved.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

My prayer is that each one here, will study the WORD and ask the HOLY SPIRIT to GUIDE you in ALL TRUTH, WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING. I love you

Littlelamb
Christian Talk Moderators

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 227
Age : 54
Location : USA
Profession : Admin of 2 forums, Children's Church Ministry
Hobbies : The BIBLE and the STUDY which I apply to life.
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2008-03-21
Points : 16065
Reputation : 4
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://www.lordismyshepherd.forumsmotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Littlelamb on Sun 10 May 2009, 11:33 am

Common wrote:Daniel, I know that just because I have not seen my heart does not mean it is not there. I knew you were coming at me with that, however, there is not biblical basis that some people turn into evil spirits after death. You also said:

What did God blow into the nostrils of Adam? His Spirit and what is "His Spirit" known as - Holy Spirit. Now if I put your theory that if man dies, his spirit also dies then it would become an unpardonable blasphemy.

You see Daniel, the one of the problems there is, I never said that man's spirit dies when he dies, because it does not. It goes back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21). Secondly, I see that you are equating the Holy Spirit with the Breath of Life. You should not, for they are different. A man can have the Breath of Life but not the Holy Spirit. Likewise a man can have the Breath of Life and the Holy Spirit.

So there was not really a refutation here, because I did not state those things. It is quite simple and Genesis 2:7 is way too clear for anyone not to understand. Man became a living soul. Spirit and body make up man. Man with just a body cannot exist without the breath of life. Likewise, Man with the Breath of Life cannot exist without a body. Therefore, as your whole reasoning on Samuel's "spirit" is based on the perversion of the Genesis 2:7 principle, it collapses. I apologize if I have offended you or anyone by my strong use of words.



Hope to hear from you soon and God bless.

Strong's Lexicon for, Breath:


1) breath, spirit

a) breath (of God)

b) breath (of man)

c) every breathing thing

d) spirit (of man)

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

a) breath

b) wind

1) of heaven

2) quarter (of wind), side

3) breath of air

4) air, gas

5) vain, empty thing

c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)

1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour

2) courage

3) temper, anger

4) impatience, patience

5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)

6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse

7) prophetic spirit

d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

e) spirit (as seat of emotion)

1) desire

2) sorrow, trouble

f) spirit

1) as seat or organ of mental acts

2) rarely of the will

3) as seat especially of moral character

g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son

1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy

2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning

3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power

4) as endowing men with various gifts

5) as energy of life

6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory

7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

Strong's Lexicon for, of life:

1) living, alive

a) green (of vegetation)

b) flowing, fresh (of water)

c) lively, active (of man)

d) reviving (of the springtime)

My question would be, whose SPIRIT breathed LIFE? Does that SPIRIT also remove itself upon death. The answer again is found in what JESUS said, in the Gospel of Luke.

Praying that this helps... I love you

Littlelamb
Christian Talk Moderators

Mood : I feel Blessed
Female

Number of posts : 227
Age : 54
Location : USA
Profession : Admin of 2 forums, Children's Church Ministry
Hobbies : The BIBLE and the STUDY which I apply to life.
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2008-03-21
Points : 16065
Reputation : 4
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://www.lordismyshepherd.forumsmotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Common on Sun 10 May 2009, 9:48 pm

Thank you LittleLamb but I am not engaging in discussions on this topic anymore. Very Happy

I've already presented my view and you all have presented yours and I respect every one of your opinions.

So this is it on my doctrinal view for this thread.

God's blessings to you. Wink

Common
Christian Talk Member

Mood : Busy
Female

Number of posts : 70
Age : 22
Location : USA
Profession : CSP in-training
Hobbies : Learning, Bible Study, Reading; Dancing? ;)
Marital Status : Single
Registration date : 2008-09-13
Points : 15072
Reputation : 1
Country :

Warning :

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Mon 11 May 2009, 5:31 am

Dear Common

As you say I will lock this topic. I did not mind anything you said, I like you and you are very intelligent. As you will grow, your way of thinking will change. However, I would like to say this, that Jesus died and before His resurrection, He preached in Spirit form. You cannot base the whole doctrine on one single verse.

One thing I have to say, when I find any scripture difficult to understand I pray to God to explain me and He does according to His goodness. So before reading the Bible, pray a small prayer to God that He teach you through Holy Spirit so that you can guide others.

In no way I am saying that I am too blessed and I am perfect, I am only sharing what I learnt through my prayers and my way of interpreting the verses have changed a lot over the years.

You are more than welcome to write whatever you want as you know I have always respected you and you are a very special member of this forum.

Dear Irv

Thank you for your kind words and I believe that you are a mighty man of God and I also believe that God loves you and is with you and has made you know the path of life. It is an honor to read the words you have written for me, however I give all the honor and glory to Heavenly Father.

Thank you Susan for explaining it so well and God bless you all.

>>>Solved>>>Locked

_________________


Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


Waqar Daniel
Administrator

Mood : I feel Blessed
Male

Number of posts : 2778
Age : 46
Location : The Kingdom of Heavenly Father
Profession : Consultant
Hobbies : Long drives, Gospel music, Bible study
Marital Status : Married
Registration date : 2007-06-25
Points : 19143
Reputation : 42
Country :

Warning :

View user profile http://christian-talk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Solved Re: What Is Man?

Post  Sponsored content Today at 1:50 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum