Is jesus God ?

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Is jesus God ?

Post  derprinz on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:19 am

Matthew 24: 32-36:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise
ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at
the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass
away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only



God is all knowing, Jesus fails this main qualification. This alone is
enough to prove that Jesus is not God. Also note the verse says ONLY
the Father meaning nobody else, including the divine Jesus.


Last edited by derprinz on Fri 29 May 2009, 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total

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Is Jesus God?

Post  Irv Everett on Thu 28 May 2009, 3:00 pm

The dictionary defines essence as: the inward nature, the true nature; its significant individual feature.

God is one in essence; not one in person

God – the Father

God – the Son

God – the Holy Spirit

One essence, three in person



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I Am.

John 10:30 I and my father are one.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, my Lord and my God.

Titus 2:13 … our great God and savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:1 … our God and Savior Jesus Christ



One essence, three in person

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Re: Is jesus God ?

Post  derprinz on Thu 28 May 2009, 3:18 pm

but if they are one
WHY
Jesus is not all knowing ????????????????

"36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only"

also

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God






Assuming the translation
is correct (which its not, the capital G should be small g, it should read the word was a
god, satan is also called god in
the Bible yet they give him a small g, but for Jesus a capital!) then what we have here is
Jesus who is the word is called God, wow I guess Jesus is God then right?! No.






You see, my first question
to the Christian is this, is this Jesus speaking? The answer is no, this is NOT Jesus
speaking! This is supposedly the disciple John writing this here not Jesus! So what we
have is an interpretation of what one man thought! Why cant Christians
get us Jesus saying in the beginning the word was with God and the word was God,
why didn’t Jesus ever say this?! So Christians now want us to believe Jesus is God
because of what a man said? A man’s interpretation! The Bible itself testifies that
the disciples often miss-understood Jesus and didn’t understand him!





So John 1:1 does not prove
anything, it is not Jesus speaking, and the Gospel of John itself shows Jesus is not God
from the very words of Jesus himself!




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Is Jesus God?

Post  Irv Everett on Thu 28 May 2009, 5:24 pm

Derprinz,

you are incorrect with your Scripture for there is not a Mark 24:32-36; The Gospel According to Mark has only 16 chapters. You are addressing Matthew 24:32-36, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 21:34-36; and the answer you seek is this, Jesus came to this world in the likeness of men; he voluntarily limited himself to the knowledge of the Father.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men.



A lot of folks reject the “almost too good to be true” news of the Gospel, but I encourage you to continue asking your questions, Irv

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Re: Is jesus God ?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:59 pm

Dear Derprinz

Thank you for joining the CHRISTIAN TALK and thank you for sharing your views on Mathew 24:32-26. However, you are misquoting the verse and totally wrong in interpreting it.
Mathew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
It is true as Jesus said that no man knows when it will happen. The question here is, did Jesus claim in Mathew 24:36 that He also did not know when will this happen? The answer is No, if you do not agree with my answer then show me where did Jesus claim that He did not know about the hour. He was talking about you and me and not about Himself. Therefore, your proof is just nothing and has no relevance.

You should have quoted
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Why did Jesus say so? He said this because the disciples knew that Jesus knows as Son of God about the time and that is why Peter, James, John and Andrew asked Him about the time. We read the same thing in
ACTS 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Secondly, if Jesus did not know about the hour then why did He talk about it and who gave John the Revelation?
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Let me ask you one question, as you are quite vocal in claiming that Jesus is not God. Show me any verse from the Bible where Jesus said that He is not God. Remember I have asked for a verse or verses and not your interpretation. If you cannot find any, then I believe that you should stop claiming that He is not.

Let me also clarify one thing for you. The Greek Bible was all written in capital letters, so your claim that capital "G" should be small "g" is totally incorrect and shows your poor and misleading knowledge of the Bible.

Lastly, you have given a link under your post "A great discussion on the Bible in Stanford University", I have one thing to say, we do not need men to approve of the Bible to believe it as the Word of God. For God has already guided us
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Therefore, I am not deceived and neither I have been taken captive by false teachers and preachers, or agnostics or human intelligence. You are welcome to ask questions.

God bless you.


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Re: Is jesus God ?

Post  ChristianLady on Thu 28 May 2009, 8:39 pm

Irv and Daniel very well explained. I agree with you Daniel that Jesus talked of you and me and not about Himself. People misquote this verse a lot and say even Jesus did not know about the hour. How sorry I feel for them as they are misled by their own ignorance. I also like to ask one question to Derprinz. If you do not believe Jesus as God then why are you discussing this? I mean if I do not believe in something, then that thing does not exist for me. Why should I waste my time in discussing??? Mad

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Re: Is jesus God ?

Post  derprinz on Fri 29 May 2009, 10:44 am

i want to thank everybody here for replying and discussing this issue
i want to reply for the points u have raised

ChristianLady
I also like to ask one question to Derprinz. If you do not believe Jesus as God then why are you discussing this?
u said it i just want to discuss and share ideas


Irv Everett
Jesus came to this world in the likeness of men; he voluntarily limited himself to the knowledge of the Father.
ONLY, meaning not even the fully divine Jesus who Christians always bring up,
the divine Jesus who was all powerful before he took on the flesh, not even that Jesus
knows the final hour


Waqar Daniel
Show me any verse from the Bible where Jesus said that He is not God. Remember
I have asked for a verse or verses and not your interpretation. If you
cannot find any, then I believe that you should stop claiming that He
is not.


let me ask you to show me any verse from the bible where Jesus said that He is God

Thanks again for replying and discussing this issue which i think is very important


i have uploaded this movie; if u want to see why jesus can not be God
http://rapidshare.com/files/220923785/top_10_reasons_why_jesus_isn_t_God.flv





"And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent."
John 17:3

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Yes Jesus is God

Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 29 May 2009, 4:57 pm

Derprinz wrote:let me ask you to show me any verse from the bible where Jesus said that He is God
I asked you a question but you avoided the question and posted a counter question. I will not back out from your challenge. You quoted a verse at the end of your reply and I will start from there
Derprinz quoted from the Bible wrote:"And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." John 17:3
Let me quote the whole verse for you:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
You unintentionally quoted the verse at the end of your reply that Jesus claimed that He was with the Heavenly Father before the world began. In your previous post, you asked a question to Christians
Derprinz wrote:You see, my first question to the Christian is this, is this Jesus speaking? The answer is no, this is NOT Jesus speaking! This is supposedly the disciple John writing this here not Jesus! So what we have is an interpretation of what one man thought! Why cant Christians get us Jesus saying in the beginning the word was with God and the word was God, why didn’t Jesus ever say this?! So Christians now want us to believe Jesus is God because of what a man said? A man’s interpretation! The Bible itself testifies that the disciples often miss-understood Jesus and didn’t understand him!
Therefore, I have quoted Jesus' words and I have given you the answer of your two challenges.

Coming back to the challenge you have put up, to show you any verse from the Bible where Jesus claims that He is God. There are hundreds of such verses and I am quoting few of them.

  • Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteousness (Isaiah 41:10)
  • Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else (Isaiah 45:22)

  • I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me? (Jeremiah 32:27)

  • I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless (Genesis 17:1)

  • “Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth’” (Matthew 28:18).

  • “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:17-22).
Please note that it is God who can forgive sins and therefore;
“When Jesus saw their faith, He said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven.’ The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, ‘Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?’” (Luke 5:20-21)
Who can raise up dead for Judgment Day?
The answer is Jesus
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
I have given you verses from the Bible that Jesus claims to be God, now you answer my question.

Piece of Advice
You preach your religion and that is Islam. I listen to such questions a lot as I live in a muslim country and I have studied Islam for 14 years and I know what Islam is. Do not think that you have landed up in a website where Americans and Europeans do not know what Islam is. If you want I can discuss your faith here although this is not the policy of this message board. We only preach and teach the love of Heavenly Father through our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. And by the way when I say Heavenly Father I do not mean your Allah here because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammed or Koran.

Again I am telling you I am not interested in men approving of the Bible or of Jesus as God. If Jesus claimed to be, then I follow God and you fail to do so.

God bless you


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Is Jesus God?

Post  Irv Everett on Fri 29 May 2009, 7:25 pm

Dear Derprinz,

Your objection to the Gospel of John is typical. Christians recognize Christ’s deity is the center of our belief; so the deity of Christ is first to come under attack. You really did not joint this forum to hear the Christian viewpoint, you had an ulterior motive. Your question was never meant for discussion but for disruption. What you do not realize is God knew you would come and he placed his witnesses here. And we testify to the goodness of God, to his mercy and grace; that God sent his only begotten Son to lay down his life just for you. God knows your heart and Jesus is waiting. Christ has already paid your sin debt; all you need to do is, to accept him as your Lord and Savior. God bless you, Irv

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Re: Is jesus God ?

Post  derprinz on Fri 29 May 2009, 8:43 pm

  • Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteousness (Isaiah 41:10)
  • Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else (Isaiah 45:22)

  • I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me? (Jeremiah 32:27)

  • I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless (Genesis 17:1)

    this is not Jesus


    Examples from the Old Testament (Tanakh) where God lets it
    be known who he is:




    “Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look
    about you, for
    I am your God
    . I will strengthen you, surely I will help
    you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand” - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Isaiah 41:10)




    “For
    I am the Lord your God, who upholds your
    right hand, Who says to you, 'Do not fear, I will help you.’” - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Isaiah
    41:13)




    "See now that
    I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand." -
    Old Testament (Tanakh)
    (Deuteronomy 32:39)




    "This is what the LORD says — Israel's King and
    Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
    I am the first and I am the last; apart
    from me there is no God.
    " - Old Testament (Tanakh) (Isaiah 44:6)

    please don't just cut verses from here and there out of their context

    IT's Not about Jesus


    and

    for




    Matthew 28:18


    Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on
    earth has been given to me.



    Here we see that all authority has been GIVEN to Jesus. How can
    Jesus be God if he was GIVEN this authority? So before Jesus was GIVEN this authority,
    what was he? He was a no body, that's what. What kind of God was he before he was GIVEN
    all this authority? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this
    authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the
    godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature?



    Jesus also goes on to say...


    John 14:28


    You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you
    loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater
    than I.






    Jesus clearly said that the Father is greater
    than him. However, Christians will argue back that this means that the Father is greater
    than Jesus in authority but not in essence.






    This contradicts Matthew 28:18 where Jesus said
    that ALL authority in heaven and earth has been GIVEN to him. Now how could the Father be
    greater than Jesus in authority if Jesus had ALL authority? If the Father is greater than
    Jesus in authority then that means that Jesus was not really given ALL authority and that
    statement of Matthew 28:18 is false.



    These are implications that cannot be explained
    or make sense.



    And by the way when I say Heavenly Father I do not mean your Allah here because I do not believe in Allah or Muhammed or Koran.


    Guess what

    Jesus never spoke english

    he never said God
    listen what he said

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTSG0YzlGB8

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 29 May 2009, 11:15 pm

    Derprinz wrote:this is not Jesus Examples from the Old Testament (Tanakh) where God lets it be known who he is:
    You come here to debate with us and yet you do not even know that it was Jesus who spoke in the Old Testament and not the Heavenly Father. It was so because Adam and Eve were banished from the presence of the Heavenly Father and He never spoke to mankind.

    It was Jesus who spoke to Abraham, Moses and others and He was the one who gave the Ten Commandments. I have never cut verses from here and there, it is you who is misquoting the Bible. First you need to know our faith and then comment on it. If you remember, in your first post you completely gave a wrong reference from the Gospels.
    Derprinz wrote:Here we see that all authority has been GIVEN to Jesus. How can Jesus be God if he was GIVEN this authority? So before Jesus was GIVEN this authority, what was he? He was a no body, that's what. What kind of God was he before he was GIVEN all this authority? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature?
    Before Jesus was given authority what was He?
    I will use the model of logic you are presenting for discussion. Let us suppose there is a surgeon who is about to operate on a patient but due to some reason has to get a replacement in his place. Would he allow a nobody to operate on the patient in his place or would he ask a nurse to do the operation? The logic says that he would ask a person who is equal to his stature, knowledge and has equal skills. Why God Almighty would give authority to a nobody? Therefore, Heavenly Father gave Jesus authority in heavens on earth because He (Jesus) is God and was with Father before the creation of the world.

    Where did I say Jesus spoke English? You know I am well aware of muslim tactics of debates. It is also a fact that Jesus never spoke Arabic and this is for sure that He never called on the name of Allah. In Arabic (correct me if I am wrong), God is Illaha and not Allah. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and Hebrew and Allah is neither Aramaic or Hebrew word.

    My Question
    Give me one verse or verses from the Bible where Jesus refuted being God. I also said that if you cannot find one then you should stop challenging this. Where is your answer? We will only debate if you give me a verse or verses from the Bible to support your stance. Remember no explanations just a verse.

    Next time I will tell you why I am not a muslim and I hope that you will enjoy it.


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Sat 30 May 2009, 1:31 am

    In Arabic (correct me if I am wrong), God is Illaha and not Allah.
    Jesus spoke Aramaic, and Hebrew and Allah is neither Aramaic or Hebrew
    word.

    ilah : means god people may worship a cow,the moon,the sun,a man that's their ilah
    Allah: means God who created you and me and everything

    la ilaha illa allah means there is no god but Allah

    listen how jesus PBUH said
    http://rapidshare.com/files/238681978/video_27.flv (i uploaded it for you )


    My Question
    Give me one verse or verses from the Bible where Jesus refuted being God
    u didn't gave me where he tell u he is God
    in contrast he tells the opposite


    John

    17:3 And
    this is
    life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus
    Christ, whom thou hast sent. ( This
    without a doubt is the shahada! I bear
    witness that there is only one God and that Jesus is his messenger, this
    is the shahada of the time back then
    .)


    Mat 19:16
    And, behold, one came and
    said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have
    eternal life?

    Mat
    19:17
    And he said
    unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there
    is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
    keep the commandments


    Jesus here denies that he is
    good in the sense that God is good which is perfect.

    So as we
    can see, Jesus was a prophet, the messiah, not God, nor ever claimed to
    be God, just as the
    Quran tells us.


    Jesus is
    not God, he is a prophet.

    Next time I will tell you why I am not a muslim and I hope that you will enjoy it.
    i don't know why you are attacking islam
    show me what u got

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 30 May 2009, 1:57 pm

    Derprinz wrote:ilah : means god people may worship a cow,the moon,the sun,a man that's their ilah
    Allah: means God who created you and me and everything
    Allah does not mean God and Allah never created me nor the heavens or the earth. God in Arabic is Illaha as you have also corroborated. Yes I agree that people make gods in shape of idols. You can also call any idol or heavenly being Allah too, like moon god.

    You did not quote any verse from the Bible where Jesus refuted being God.
    Derprinz wrote:John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (This without a doubt is the shahada! I bear witness that there is only one God and that Jesus is his messenger, this is the shahada of the time back then.)
    Where does it is written in the Bible that Jesus came to earth on His personal will. We as Christians believe that He was sent by Heavenly Father to save all of us.
    Derprinz quoted from the Bible and wrote:Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
    keep the commandments

    Derprinz Comments
    Jesus here denies that he is good in the sense that God is good which is perfect.

    So as we can see, Jesus was a prophet, the messiah, not God, nor ever claimed to
    be God, just as the Quran tells us.
    Jesus never denied anything. You cannot quote half of the verse and start debating on it. We have to read the whole story.

    The story is that a young man approaches Jesus considering Him as a "Good Master". A Good Teacher who would tell him how to get into the Kingdom of God. Jesus replies back to him for what he considers Him to be. This young man never considered him to be the LORD and Savior, neither the Messiah. Therefore, Jesus asked him why he calls Him good.

    Then Jesus tells him to keep the commandments and the young man asks which commandments and Jesus replies.
    He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mathew 19:18-19)
    The young man says that he has followed all these commands since his youth and asks Jesus what he lacks.

    Jesus tells him to go and sell everything he has and tells him to follow him. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (Mathew 19:22)

    Remember
    Jesus was talking about the Ten Commandments which the young man said that he has kept since his youth. But when Jesus asked the young man to fulfill the First Commandment, he refused to obey.

    What did Jesus ask the young man to do to get everlasting life?
    Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Mathew 19:22)

    First Commandment
    I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

    Now let me ask you where did Jesus refute being God? He asked that young man to follow him and accept Him as His LORD and Savior but the young man refused. Now here is the cost for refusing to follow Jesus
    And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Mathew 19:24)
    Therefore, dear friend read the whole incident and quote the verses properly. Do not try to deceive others.

    When Jesus said that Father is greater than Him, we believe so. I asked you to give me a verse where Jesus denies to be God and not your interpretation.
    Derprinz wrote:i don't know why you are attacking islam show me what u got
    You came here and attacked Christianity. Now you are asking me why I am attacking Islam??? Yes I will tell you why I am not a muslim. But first to end this debate. I would like to ask you one more question:

    Do you believe that the words of Koran will never change till the Judgment Day - Whatever is written is binding and true?







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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Sat 30 May 2009, 5:10 pm

    you know what your problem is
    everyword in the Bible where it says God u say this is jesus
    even the famous christian scholars in debates never said that
    u can check www.truthway.tv

    Everyone tell what he think and let the reader judge

    llah does not mean God and Allah never created me nor the heavens or the earth
    well guess what
    Jesus called God Allah
    check this if u want http://rapidshare.com/files/238681978/video_27.flv

    I asked you to give me a verse where Jesus denies to be God
    i gave u
    please give me where he state he is God

    ou came here and attacked Christianity. Now you are asking me why I am attacking Islam??? Yes I will tell you why I am not a muslim. But first to end this debate. I would like to ask you one more question:

    Do you believe that the words of Koran will never change till the Judgment Day - Whatever is written is binding and true?

    i don't attack christianity
    i just raise some points that need an answer

    Do you believe that the words of Koran will never change till the Judgment Day - Whatever is written is binding and true?

    Quran will never change and doesn't contain any contradiction
    but when we see the bible it contains many contradictions
    i will open some subjects to show the contradictions in the bible
    i hope u don't mind

    'None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be
    forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God
    has power over all things?' (2: 106).

    When the message of Islam was presented to the
    Arabs as something new, and different from their way of life, it was introduced
    in stages. The Qur'an brought important changes gradually, to allow the people
    to adjust to the new prescriptions.
    Example:
    There are three verses in the Qur'an concerning the drinking
    of wine. Wine drinking was very widespread in pre-Islamic times and, although a
    social evil, highly esteemed. The three verses which finally led to the
    prohibition of intoxicating substances were revealed in stages (4: 43, 2: 219;
    5: 93-4).

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 30 May 2009, 8:31 pm

    You know your problem is that you have run out of answers and excuses. God of Old Testament is Jesus Christ and I am sorry if you did not know that or your mentors Dr. Zakir Naik did not know that. By the way I have watched all his and Ahmed Deedat's videos. I do watch Peace TV and trust me I know what you are talking about. You all have same story.

    Jesus identified to Moses like this
    Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    This is what Jesus said in the New Testament
    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    That is why we say Jesus is same yesterday, today and forever.

    Now coming to the point, although you failed to give a single verse where Jesus refuted to be God, however, I thank you that you answered my second question.

    My Question
    Do you believe that the words of Koran will never change till the Judgment Day - Whatever is written is binding and true?

    Your Answer
    Derprinz wrote:Quran will never change and doesn't contain any contradiction but when we see the bible it contains many contradictions i will open some subjects to show the contradictions in the bible i hope u don't mind
    You have answered perfectly. Koran no where says that Bible has been altered or even have contradiction. If the Bible has been corrupted (as you say) then Muhammad believed that he was mentioned in the Bible. How could he refer to a book that was corrupt, and speaking of him?

    Now keeping in mind, your own statement that Koran's words will remain true till judgment day, then I think this verse of Koran verifies the Bible
    "It is he who sent down to thee in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and he sent down the Law (Of Moses) and the Gospel (Of Jesus)." (Surah Al-Imran verse 3)
    Let us see another verse from Koran
    "They said, "O our people, we have heard a book revealed after Moses, confirming what is in their hands; it guides (men) to the ruth and to a straight path." (Koran 46:30)
    Let me also write the Arabic version of this verse.

    kaloo ya kawmana inna sami'ina kitaban unzila ba'd Musa Musadekan Lima Bayna Yadayehe Yahdee ela al-hak wa-ela tareekin mustakeem

    I have written the roman arabic so that there should be no doubt. Surah Al-Ahqaf verse 30 states that is in their hands, if the words of the koran remain true till judgment day then every time this verse is read Bible remains true.

    Either say that this verse is incorrect or you are lying. You choose the answer that suits best for you.

    Now I am writing Why I am not a Muslim. Please read below









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    Why I am not a Muslim?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 30 May 2009, 8:58 pm

    Now let me write little bit about me so that all the puzzles fall into right places. I am thirty-eight years old. I have not touched any woman yet, I am unmarried, I have no girl-friend(s) and certainly have no gay friends.

    If I turn to Islam and become a Muslim I will go to paradise. Let me see what will I get in paradise:

    Koran 78:31
    As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.

    Koran 37:40-48
    ...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

    Koran 44:51-55
    ...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

    Koran 52:17-20
    ...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...

    Koran 55:56-57
    In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

    Koran 55:57-58
    Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

    Koran 56:7-40
    ...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "

    Koran 55:70-77
    "In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..

    So what kinds of virgins will I get?

    • high-bosomed virgins as companions an overflowing cup
    • dark eyed virgins
    • no man or jinn has ever touched them
    • virgins fair as corals and rubies

    Great! nice going, what else will I get in paradise? Let us see!

    Koran 52:24
    Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

    Koran 56:17
    Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

    Koran 76:19
    And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

    Awesome! with virgins I will get boys too and what kind of boys?

    • boys like pearls well-guarded
    • boys with perpetual freshness
    • boys like scattered pearls


    Amazing stuff, I will get virgins, boys in paradise and what else will I get? Let me check

    Koran 56:7-40
    They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shalt wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine:

    Koran 83:23-26
    The righteous will surely dwell in bliss. Reclining upon soft couches they will gaze around them: and in their faces you shall mark the glow of joy. They shall be given a pure wine to drink, securely sealed, whose very dregs are musk...

    Now the paradise is complete, I will have virgins, boys and wine. What else I need more than this. As I have stated above a little bit about me, what will I do in a Muslim paradise?

    What will I do with virgins when I have not known a woman on earth? What will I do with boys when I have no gay friends? What will I do with wine when I drink once a while? So why should I be a Muslim when I do not need such things on earth? Therefore, I have decided not to be a Muslim as I do not know what to do in Paradise of Koran.

    It is so contrary, that in paradise of Koran, Allah will give wine to believers whereas,

    Koran 5:90
    ...Intoxiacants (wine) and gambling...are of Satan's handiwork...

    Dear Derprinz,

    This site is for preaching and not debating about Koran, Allah or Muhammed. We only preach
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)
    As I told you before, that you will find this site to be different, for I know Koran and I live in a muslim country. Therefore, you cannot fool me. Go and preach your koran to some other website, who have no answers to your questions.


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Johntheservant on Sat 30 May 2009, 9:23 pm

    Daniel you must be joking this cannot be true. How can God permit in paradise what He did not allow on earth.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 30 May 2009, 9:28 pm

    No John I am not, I quoted you verses from Koran and ask Derprinz, I will get these as reward for being a muslim in paradise. How can I lie when I quoted the Koran. It may be shocking to you but it is true and this is what Koran says. I have not added a single letter to these verses. I have not yet quoted Hadiths on rewards in paradise, let Derprinz quote them for us.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  annlovesjesus on Sat 30 May 2009, 9:37 pm

    I have to say that this guy has tried to destroy peaceful atmosphere of this forum. I would request moderators to take notice of his blasphemous words. Why is he preaching islam to us when we are not even interested. He must be asked to leave for we are not interested in his videos and preaching. He came here saying Jesus is not God and then says that he has risen some points that need answers. Who is he to ask us. He needs to prove his faith to us and by the way no one here is interested in his faith. I think this guy must leave this forum and go preach his faith to some other website. He must leave for he is a miscreant and nothing more. For me I am not interested in islam for I do not want to be a suicide bomber and destroy the peace of this world.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  I Love Jesus on Sat 30 May 2009, 9:41 pm

    I agree with you ann why should we listen to his blasphemous remarks. He is no one and he should not be allowed to post on this forum. I stand against his remarks against Bible and Jesus.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Sun 31 May 2009, 10:23 am

    you are blowing many points at the same time
    that remind me of shorrosh Very Happy

    and why don't you put it in another new topic because this topic talks about why jesus isn't God
    please move it to another new topic

    for the first part of your question "12:31 am"
    Koran no where says that Bible has been altered or even have contradiction
    "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other
    into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips
    but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,-
    will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change
    the words from their (right) times and places:
    they say, 'If ye are given
    this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no
    authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify
    their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy
    punishment.
    (The Noble Quran, 5:41)"The verses are too long to post altogether, but a few of those which
    suggest previous scriptures/books were corrupted are the following:
    5:13, 5:15, 5:41, 2:159, 2:174, 3:75, 3:187, 4:46, 7:162, etc

    Now keeping in mind, your own statement that Koran's words will remain
    true till judgment day, then I think this verse of Koran verifies the
    Bible
    Al-Imran verse 3
    46:30

    Say
    (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and
    that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and
    Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and
    that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no
    distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered
    (The Noble Quran, 2:136)
    There is no reference to the Bible in the Quran whatsoever. The Quran mentions
    the Taurat (Old Testament) and the Injil (New Testament).
    The New Testament is a collection of 4 biographies of Christ, 27 epistles of St.
    Paul, and other books on the lives and adventures on the followers of Christ. There
    is no record of a book revealed to Jesus. Perhaps the closest to it are the words of Jesus
    himself, which constitutes less than 10% of the NT
    In fact, the original Bible or New Testament (the very first one) did not correspond to
    the Injil, Taurat, or Zabur in the first place. It doesn't matter how unreliably it was
    transmitted; the Bible does not correspond to the Quranic Injil.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Sun 31 May 2009, 11:55 am

    Some Christian debaters tried to prove that
    the GOD of Islam is a pervert GOD, because He promised mates for the
    believers in Paradise who are equal of age (Noble
    Verses 78:31-33)
    and were never touched by Jinn or Men before
    (Noble Verses 55:54-56).

    There is no problem with Allah Almighty promising the believers beautiful mates in
    Paradise. The point is however, the Noble Quran does not in anyway expose women's
    private parts like the Bible so ridiculously does with women. It's a shame that the
    Bible exposed every private part of King Solomon's wife for instance and said that her
    vagina and breasts taste like wine. It's a shame to call such trash a Divine
    Inspiration from GOD Almighty

    So what, if Allah Almighty prepared maximum sexual pleasure for us in heaven? He is the
    one who created sex here on earth anyway, correct?

    He is the one who created in you the high sexual desires for women or for men (depending
    on your gender), correct?

    So are the anti-Islamic Christians suggesting that the GOD of Christianity is a pervert
    then? (since He created sex)?

    Heaven is Heaven. It has the maximum pleasure in everything; in nature views, happiness,
    sex, food, etc...

    And round about them Will (serve) youths Of
    perpetual (freshness):
    If thou seest them, Thou wouldst think them Scattered
    Pearls.
    (The Noble Quran, 76:19) "...youths of..." is written in Arabic this
    time as "wil-daa-nun", which literally means young boys. This Noble Verse
    is talking about young male servants whom Allah Almighty Created for the service of
    the Believers in Paradise.
    yes they are like pearls very clean u have a problem with that
    where is the problem?
    there wasn't homosexuality at that time so prophet Muhammad PBUH try to incite the people at that time
    HUH

    On couches, gazing,Thou wilt know in their faces the radiance of delight.They are given to drink of a pure wine, sealed,Whose seal is musk quran 83:23-26
    u said it pure wine in the paradise and don't worry who drink from it won't get drunk
    Very Happy !!!!!!!! but here u will get drunk Bang Head and the verse u quoted
    O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining
    arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order
    that ye may succeed
    (The Noble Quran, 5:90)
    forbid wine and gambling etc in this life
    isn't that a geart religion ?


    Christians must believe Paradise
    is physical, the Bible says Jesus “was taken up into heaven” in a physical body
    (Luke 24:51)
    How can Jesus ascend to Heaven in a physical body afterhe said Heaven is only spiritual?


    The Bible itself denies the concept of Paradise
    as a spiritual domain, where playing
    harp and singing hymn is all you do.




    Jesus gave the implication that Paradise is
    physical (despite what Pauline writers made
    him say Luke 20:36) According to Matthew, he said: "Do not store up
    for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where
    thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves
    treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do
    not break in and steal. (Matthew 6:18-20).


    Also, when GOD Almighty created Adam, peace be upon him, in the Garden of Eden (one of the
    Gardens of Heaven), He created him in our physical form today:


    Genesis 2:7-9

    7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and
    breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
    8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and
    there he put the man he had formed.
    9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were
    pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life
    and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.



    Genesis 2:14-16

    14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east
    side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
    15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the
    Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

    16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the
    garden;



    Dear Derprinz,

    This site is for preaching and not debating about Koran, Allah or Muhammed. We only preach

    but we were talking about the subjust Is Jesus God
    and u are the one who started talking about Quran


    He is no one and he should not be allowed to post on this forum
    what a freedom of expression dear ' i love jesus '
    lol!


    Last edited by derprinz on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Sun 31 May 2009, 1:26 pm

    Let me correct you here. I do not copy Anis Sarosh for I did this research when I was 17 years old when I watched the video of Ahmed Deedat, a debate between him and Jimmy Swaggart. My research has nothing to do with Anis Sarosh. Instead of alleging a lie against me, you need to know the person first. I started to write in local Newspaper defending Christianity and defeating bigwigs of Islam. If you need proof, I can scan the Newspaper and you can check the dates and see how old I was at that time. So do not allege falsehood at me.

    Regarding freedom of speech, if I say anything against your prophet, you will get ready to kill me. Who know you strap a suicide bomber's jacket and explode yourself up. Isn't this the rule in Islam if anyone's talks against your prophet?

    You do not even know anything about Christianity and what we believe in, that is why when I quoted Old Testament, you said it is not Jesus.
    O Messenger! Let not them grieve thee who vie one with another in the race to disbelief, of such as say with their mouths: "We believe," but their hearts believe not, and of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk who come not unto thee, changing words from their context and saying: If this be given unto you, receive it, but if this be not given unto you, then beware! He whom Allah doometh unto sin, thou (by thine efforts) wilt avail him naught against Allah. Those are they for whom the Will of Allah is that He cleanse not their hearts. Theirs in the world will be ignominy, and in the Hereafter an awful doom; (Koran 5:41)
    You quoted a verse that talks of a dialogue between Muhammed and Jews, where Jews did not consider him a prophet. Now the verse say that Jews come to debate with him and during discussion they change words from their context - Note they change verbally and do not make amendments in Torah (Pentateuch). So how can this be a verse against the Bible?
    How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers. (Koran 5:43)
    Your Allah says that how can Jews come to Muhammed and debate, when they have Torah and they can read (unaltered) where they can read about deliverance. Therefore, Koran 5:41 talks of verbals changes Jews made while discussing and challenging Muhammed

    Again the question remains, if Muhammed thought that he is mentioned in the Bible why would he refer to a corrupted version of Torah (I will not use the word Bible so that you have no excuse). Please quote verse from the Koran in the right context.

    Why should I move this topic to another Forum when I asked you that I will be writing "Why I am not a Muslim" and you said ok. So it will stay here.

    I am not interested in debating "Is Jesus God" with you as for your failed to prove it and you failed to produce a single verse from the Bible specifically saying Jesus is not God. The best you could do was to show us a verse where Jesus said Father is greater than He. So we believe in it and it is part of our faith.
    Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered(The Noble Quran, 2:136)
    Revelations can be a word and then that word is written down by scribes. Do you think this happened this way:

    Hi, I am Allah, Mr. Abraham here is your book, hello Mr. Moses here is your Book, Hello Jesus here is your Book. Are they on a Book store? And was Koran complete in book form in the time of Muhammed? Now answer this carefully.

    Now why should I believe in Allah, whose words of his own mouth were corrupted by satan. What hope do you have that koran is not corrupted? I can say this because if Allah gave Torah, Psalms and Injeel, he failed to guard his own words. Satan corrupted it, therefore, it makes satan superior and that is why I say Allah is no creator and even God.

    Regarding the Forum, we do not get into Inter-faith discussion because you call my faith bad I call you faith bad. Jesus has stopped us from doing so.

    Why are you ashamed of your Allah's words regarding paradise. I showed you what I will get in paradise if I turn to Islam. By the way What will women get? Will they get a single male sex bomb or do they even have any place in paradise? Regarding young boys what will they be serving? their virginity or wine or both?

    Let me quote a Hadith for you,
    Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34
    Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them.
    Amazing, a Super market to get a woman of your own choice.



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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 3:43 pm

    Regarding freedom of speech, if I say anything against your prophet,
    you will get ready to kill me. Who know you strap a suicide bomber's
    jacket and explode yourself up. Isn't this the rule in Islam if
    anyone's talks against your prophet?

    it becomes more obvious for me that you don't know nothing about islam
    have you ever read the Quran

    The Quran
    commands Muslims to stick up for themselves in a defensive battle --
    i.e. if an enemy army attacks, then Muslims are to fight against that
    army until they stop their aggression. All of the verses that speak
    about fighting/war in the Qur'an are in this context.
    “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight
    them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
    justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility
    except to those who practise oppression.”

    [Al-Qur'an 2-193]

    “…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief
    in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one
    saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.”

    [Al-Qur'an 5]



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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 3:53 pm

    u said
    Again the question remains, if Muhammed thought that he is mentioned in
    the Bible why would he refer to a corrupted version of Torah (I will
    not use the word Bible so that you have no excuse).. Please quote verse from the Koran in the right context.
    please look what i told u
    The verses are too long to post altogether, but a few of those which
    suggest previous scriptures/books were corrupted are the following:
    5:13, 5:15, 5:41, 2:159, 2:174, 3:75, 3:187, 4:46, 7:162, etc

    u also said

    How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein
    Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn
    away. Such (folk) are not believers. (Koran 5:43)
    Your Allah says that how can Jews come to Muhammed and debate, when
    they have Torah and they can read (unaltered) where they can read about
    deliverance.

    This verse illustrates the strange mentality of the Jews,
    who-despite the fact that they believe the Torah to contain all of the Divine
    Law - surreptitiously turn to a religious dispensation in which they do not
    believe in the hope that its verdict on certain ethical questions might confirm
    some of their own wishful beliefs which happen to run counter to the Torah.


    In other words, they are not really prepared to submit to
    the judgment of the Torah-although they assert their belief in it -nor the
    judgment of the Qur'an, which confirms some of the laws of the Torah and
    abrogates others: for, as soon as they come to realize that the Qur'an does not
    agree with their preconceived ideas, they turn away from it.

    The fact that the Tawrat and the Injeel
    have been falsified does not mean that each and every word in them was
    falsified. For instance the ruling of stoning to death which was
    revealed in chapter five [Al-Maaidah], existed in the Torah at the time
    of the Prophet .


    Al-Bara' Ibn 'Aazib narrated: ''A blackened and lashed Jew happened to pass by the Prophet . Thereupon, the Prophet
    called the Jews and said: ''Is this the punishment that you find in
    your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery?'' They
    replied: ''Yes''. The Prophet
    then called one of their scholars and said: ''I ask you in the name of
    Allaah Who sent down the Torah on Moses, is that the prescribed
    punishment for adultery that you find in your Book? He said: ''No. Had
    you not asked me in the name of Allaah, I would not have given you this
    information. We find stoning to death (as a punishment prescribed in
    the Torah). But this crime of adultery became quite common amongst our
    aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person
    (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a
    helpless or poor person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him.
    We then said: Let us agree on a punishment which we can inflict upon
    both the rich and the poor. Therefore, we decided to blacken the face
    with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning.
    Thereupon the Prophet said: ''O Allaah, I am the first to revive Your command when they had made it dead. He then commanded the offender to be stoned to death. Then Allaah, revealed the following verse, Allaah Says (what means): {O Messenger, (the behaviour of) those who vie with one another in denying the truth should not grieve you...} [Quran 5:41].
    Even though the Torah was falsified and forged, the ruling of stoning to
    death still remained in it but the Jews did not act upon it, and
    replaced it with flogging. Ibn Taymiyyah said: ''This
    does not necessarily mean that no falsification occurred in the Torah
    with regards to conveying information. They were actually falsified in
    their wording. On the other hand, regarding the rulings which existed
    in the Torah, (they were abandoned, but) no one can confirm that they
    were falsified in their wording."


    Therefore, Allaah ordered them to judge according to the rulings which existed in
    their Book and which were not falsified and which were confirmed by the legislation of the Prophet .


    2- There is no order for the Jews to judge according to the Torah in verse
    44, chapter 5, as the questioned mentioned. As regards the saying of
    Allaah (which means): {But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allaah} [Quran
    5:
    43], then this verse is not an order to them to judge according to
    the Torah, rather it is a condemnation and blame for their wrong belief
    and the fact that they are misusing the meaning of this verse, as they
    did not act according to the ruling of stoning which is in the Torah, a
    Book which they believed as being Allaah's Words, but instead sought
    the verdict of the Prophet despite denying his Prophecy and Message.

    The meaning of the verse, therefore, is how they would seek you to judge
    between them despite the fact that they do not believe in your Message
    and do not believe that you are a Prophet, and they neglected the Torah
    which they believed that it is Allaah's Rulings. Al-Bukhaari and Muslim reported that the Jews came to the Prophet seeking his verdict about the man and woman who committed Zina (adultery or fornication).

    3- Allaah Says (what means): {Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allaah has revealed therein.} [Quran 5:47]. Some interpreters of the Quran said that this verse is an order to the Christians to judge according to the Injeel before the Prophet
    was sent as a Prophet. This interpretation is supported by another
    confirmed authentic narration about the saying of Allaah (which means):
    {Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allaah has revealed therein.}, which means that Allaah revealed the Injeed to 'Eesa so that the people of the Injeel would judge according to what Allaah has revealed in it.


    4- Allaah gave glad tidings of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad in the Torah and the Injeel, and ordered them to believe in him, follow him and support him, Allaah Says (what means): {And
    (remember) when 'Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children
    of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allaah unto you confirming the Tawraat
    (Torah) which came before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to
    come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.}
    [Quran 61:6]. Allaah further Says (what means): {Those
    who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write
    (i.e. Muhammad) whom they find written with them in the Tawraat (Torah)
    and the Injeel (Gospel).}
    [Quran 7:157]. [[This is mentioned in (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15), and Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16)]].


    Therefore, Allaah's order for the Jews and Christians to judge by the Torah and the Injeel is an order for them to follow the Prophet about whom glad tidings were given in the Torah and the Injeel.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 5:05 pm

    Why are you ashamed of your Allah's words regarding paradise.

    where did u get that from
    Shocked

    in contrary, i clarified the misconception u had
    show me where am i wrong
    i also prooved to u the paradise is physical in the bible

    http://christian-talk.forumotion.com/contradictions-in-the-bible-f27/is-jesus-god-t3070.htm#6661

    As for Hadith references, Al-Hadis vol.4, P. 172,
    No.34 is a totally incorrect reference, as there is no Hadith work
    entitled 'Al-Hadis'.


    It demonstrates how superficial is your informations


    By the way What will women get? Will they get a single male sex bomb or do they even have any place in paradise?
    These are some verses that show the equality that men and
    women receive when it comes to attaining the rewards of paradise.




    Surah 3:195

    So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among
    you, whether male or female...

    Surah 4:194

    And whoever does good deeds whether male or female and he (or she) is a believer --
    these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.

    Surah 16:97

    Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most certainly
    make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best
    of what they did.

    Surah 33:35

    Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the
    believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the
    truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the
    humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the
    fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the
    men who remember Allah much and the women who remember -- Allah has prepared for them
    forgiveness and a mighty reward.

    Surah 36:56

    They and their wives shall be in shades, reclining on raised couches

    Surah 39:34

    They will have with their Lord whatever they desire;
    that is the reward of those who good.


    Surah 43:70

    Enter the garden, you and your wives; you shall be made happy.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 8:38 pm

    Muslims always lie and you are the biggest liar of all - why I say so?
    Derprinz wrote:As for Hadith references, Al-Hadis vol.4, P. 172, No.34 is a totally incorrect reference, as there is no Hadith work entitled 'Al-Hadis'. It demonstrates how superficial is your informations
    Let us see how big liar you are. I am giving you description of Al-Hadis,

    Author: Maulana Fazlul Karim
    Publisher: Islamic Book Service, India
    Pages: 2892
    Price: USD 35.95

    Available online: Yes
    Available at: Online Islamic Store

    Description:
    This book, "al-Hadees" or "al-Hadis", or its common name "mishkat al masabih," is a popular collection of assorted ahadith (narrations of the Prophet, pbuh). It contains the Holy Prophet's sayings relating to the events before and after the doomsday, the graphic descriptions of the day of resurrection, the accountability of our actions in the next world and the rewards in paradise and punishments in Hell. There are leading
    articles on the life of the Prophet (pbuh) showing him an excellent ideal in all aspects of human life and on the inner meanings of the life after death, and of its gifts and chastisements.

    Do you need more references on Al-Hadis? Don't just watch videos rather read. I know Dr. Israr Ahmed very conveniently said that there is no such Hadis (Hadith). It is convenient to deny anything they you muslims want, yet this is the most preached hadis (hadith) in Madrasas to prepare Jihadis and Talibans. Even Al-Qaeida uses this hadis.

    [color=blue]Therefore , you lied, and you should apologize for misleading others.


    Thank you for quoting references from Surah 3:195; Surah 4:194; Surah 16:97; Surah 33:35; Surah 36:56' Surah 39:34 and Surah 43:70

    My question was what will women get in heaven as compared to men who will have a pleasure of 70 hoors, perpetual boys and wine. Will they have pleasure watching their husbands deflowering 70 hoors and perpetual boys while drinking? OR will they have their own sex machines?

    Or shall I quote you another Hadis and I think I should
    Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 686 Ibn Masud reported, "We were fighting with the Messenger of Allah, and our wives were not with us. We asked the Messenger of Allah, 'Should we castrate ourselves?' The Holy Prophet forbade us from that, and then he allowed us Muta (temporary) marriage. So, we all married wives for a fixed time (usually three days) for the dowry of a piece of cloth."

    I never contradicted to a physical paradise and nowhere I said that it does not exist in physical form. Please do not imagine on your own and do not put false allegations on me.

    I believe in physical paradise and hell but I do not believe in paradise of Koran. This is what the Bible says about life after resurrection
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Mathew 22:29-30)
    In other words, sex free paradise, no hoors (virgins) and no young boys.

    Regarding Freedom of Speech I nowhere said that it is written in Koran. It is general trend of Muslims to kill the person who talks against Muhammed or Koran but Muslims can talk against anyone. You have quoted your mentor Dr. Zakir Naik. However the Koran clearly says:

    Koran 5:54
    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. Allah does not guide an unjust people.

    Koran 2:193 and 8:39
    Fight against them (non-believers) until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is Allah's entirely.

    That is why you all have destroyed the peace of the world.

    Therefore you (muslims) are our enemy as your Allah has commanded you and I believe that you follow him and Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and this is my prayer that God may lead you to the path of life and give you understanding to know His Son Jesus Christ.

    Again, there is no mention of any corruption of Torah, Psalms and Injeel in the Koran. It talks of the hearts of people (Jews) and I have commented on that verse and I do not need to repeat it again. It was a simple dialogue between Jews and Muhammed where Jews rejected him as a prophet. You have given references from Koran and yet you say that you don't think I have even read koran. You know, seriously I can only laugh at you.

    Again the question remains there, if the Bible is corrupted, why Muhammed claimed that he is mentioned in Bible. He claimed to be in a corrupted Book - so strange?

    Second what kind of god is Allah who cannot protect his own words? It is a real joke, first Allah gives Torah, which becomes corrupt, then he gives Psalms that too becomes corrupt and then he gives Injeel and it also falls. What kind of god is Allah who cannot even defend his own words? Corruption always comes from satan and God's words and nature can never be corrupted by satan. All his promises in Torah, Psalms and Injeel are then lies? What kind of god is he who lies?
    I the LORD do not change (Malachi 3:6)
    If there is corruption in the Bible then you will find sexual desires as we find it in paradise of koran. On the other hand
    But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Mathew 5:28)

    _________________


    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  thirsty on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 9:30 pm

    Leave it Daniel he is lost in his own challenges and he is now confused and opening up many topics. He is so confused that he is just putting up allegations. I ask you derprinz, why should we follow you messenger, who married a six years old girl? Before you say that this is irrelevant, I give you a reason. You are preching islam to us and we have to believe in allah, koran and mohamed so why should I believe in mohamed who married a six years old girl.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  goldentree on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 10:14 pm

    Derprinz is a hen without head. He came here preaching to us something superior and now is frantically trying to escape. He cannot even defend his allah's words. Monkey Dance

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 5:35 am

    part1
    in fact you are the one who lied, and you should apologize for misleading others.
    who is Maulana Fazlul Karim
    he lived with the prophet muhammad pbuh or what
    give me something from Quran or Sunna
    and i toold u before and i will repeat it again
    Some Christian debaters tried to prove that
    the GOD of Islam is a pervert GOD, because He promised mates for the
    believers in Paradise who are equal of age (Noble
    Verses 78:31-33)
    and were never touched by Jinn or Men before
    (Noble Verses 55:54-56).
    There is no problem with Allah Almighty promising the believers beautiful mates in
    Paradise. The point is however, the Noble Quran does not in anyway expose women's
    private parts like the Bible so ridiculously does with women. It's a shame that the
    Bible exposed every private part of King Solomon's wife for instance and said that her
    vagina and breasts taste like wine. It's a shame to call such trash a Divine
    Inspiration from GOD Almighty
    So what, if Allah Almighty prepared maximum sexual pleasure for us in heaven? He is the
    one who created sex here on earth anyway, correct?
    He is the one who created in you the high sexual desires for women or for men (depending
    on your gender), correct?
    So are the anti-Islamic Christians suggesting that the GOD of Christianity is a pervert
    then? (since He created sex)?
    Heaven is Heaven. It has the maximum pleasure in everything; in nature views, happiness,
    sex, food, etc...


    part2

    My question was what will women get in heaven as compared to men who will have a pleasure of 70 hoors
    look what u said
    By the way What will women get? Will they get a single male sex bomb or do they even have any place in paradise?
    It is sufficient to realize the words of Allah:
    "They shall have what they will of their Lord's bounty. That is the reward of the good ." [Qur'an: Surat Zumar, 34]
    In Paradise, if we wish for something, it will be there before us,
    and no one will find anything less than everything they could possibly
    seek. Allah will inspire each to seek what is good, in accordance with
    their sincerity and spiritual striving in this life.
    However, what a person should worry about is getting there.
    And Allah alone gives success.
    part3
    dear Daniel
    u said
    I believe in physical paradise and hell but I do not believe in paradise of Koran
    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Mathew 22:29-30)
    Obviously this contradicts the very teachings of Bible about Adam and
    Eve having physical bodies in Heaven and that they had sex (they were a husband and wife).
    and excuse me i thought christian don't believe in physical paradise and when i talk to some of my christian friends they insist that paradise is spiritual and not physical
    i ask u again where
    do u see the problem in promising the believers beautiful mates in
    Paradise ?

    part4
    Koran 5:54
    O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. Allah does not guide an unjust people.
    first the verse is O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is
    (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk
    .(The Noble Quran 5:51) and not 54

    In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is
    used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali".
    The correct translation of the word ""wali""
    is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also
    used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".
    check this link http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543362
    Koran 2:193 and 8:39
    the verses actually says:
    "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for
    Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
    "(The Noble Quran 8:39)
    And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But
    if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against
    wrong-doers
    . (The Noble Quran 2:193)

    Lying does not help your cause. Very Happy
    part 5
    Again the question remains there, if the Bible is corrupted, why
    Muhammed claimed that he is mentioned in Bible. He claimed to be in a
    corrupted Book - so strange?
    The Noble Quran came to CONFIRM the Truth that exists in the
    Bible. Allah Almighty NEVER claimed that the bible is fully
    and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth
    from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The
    Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration
    in it.
    Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and
    anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded
    Allah Almighty commanded the Jews and Christians to rule among themselves according to
    the Bible only in the social and domestic disputes. This was when Islam was partial
    and its Laws were not yet complete. The following Hadith further proves this:
    Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's
    Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual
    intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah
    (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?
    "
    They
    replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said,
    "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and
    opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses
    preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand."
    When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad
    has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that
    both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man
    leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."
    (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh)
    and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)
    "
    But after Islam became complete, there was no reason for them to continue following the
    Bible: ".....This day those who reject faith given up all
    hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This
    day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you
    , completed my favour upon
    you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....
    (The Noble Quran, 5:3)"
    Here is what Noble Verse 7:157 states: "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet,
    whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he
    commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is
    good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and
    from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honor him,
    help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will
    prosper."

    We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to
    the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message; "We
    (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein: had it not
    been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided
    Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it.
    (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"
    The original Message of the Torah (Old Testament) was still around during Muhammad's
    (peace be upon him) time. But because the Jews had so much controversies, disputes
    and age-old prejudices among themselves, they ended up losing the entire original
    message. Please keep in mind that the Jews were divided into several tribes before
    Islam, and those tribes had so much problems. They never had One True
    Judaism as many Christians mistakenly believe.
    That is why the Jews
    massacred each others before and brought themselves from 11 tribes to only 2 (Judea and
    Samara located in what we call today West Bank Palestine) due to all of the blood shed
    that took place between them. A total of 9 tribes were completely wiped out.
    That is why "differences arose therein....."
    Allah Almighty promised hell to those Jews who caused the corruption of the Original
    Torah; "Know they not Allah Knoweth what they [the Jews]
    conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them [the Jews] illiterates, who know
    not the Book [the Old Testament], but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing
    but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book [Old Testament] with their own
    hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe
    to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
    (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"
    As for the Christians and their Injil (New Testament), we Muslims believe that the
    Christians unintentionally had corrupted the Bible because they waited for too long to document it. Some Christians believe that the Bible was documented 150 years after Jesus. Others believe it took 300 years. In either case, the gap is too big
    and no Christian can guarantee accuracy. That is why you read in their current books and Gospels things such as "And Jesus said to Matthew....." instead of "And Jesus said to me [Matthew]...." and so on. Cases similar to this example literally exist in most of the New Testament of today, where they prove that the New Testament was not even written by its original authors. It was written by third party people, and their words are considered today the Word of GOD, which is wrong and sinful. The Christian sects also believe in different number of Gospels when you compare them to each others. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...
    Allah Almighty warned Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him from the false practices doneby Jews and Christians:
    "Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with
    thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God,-that is the
    (only) Guidance.' Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached
    thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God.
    (The Noble Quran, 2:120)"
    "They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided
    (To salvation).' Say thou: 'Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he
    joined not gods with God.'
    (The Noble Quran, 2:135)"
    "Indeed they reject the truth, those that say "God is Christ, the son of
    Mary." For indeed, Christ said, worship God, who is my God and your God.
    (The Holy Quran, 5:72)"
    Trinity today, and the corruption of the Torah (The Law sent to the Jews) to prove that the Jews are the best people for all times and all places and the denial of Jesus peace be upon him and the many other false teachings are evidence of the false teachings and practices of the Christians and the Jews.
    In general, we Muslims believe that the current Torah and Injil are mixed between the true Words of GOD Almighty and man's corruption. We also believe that the Bible had more truth in it during Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time than what we have today.
    That is why Allah Almighty was challenging some of the Jews and the Christians to
    refer to their Scriptures back then


    Last edited by derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 5:37 am

    part5
    what kind of god is Allah who cannot protect his own words?
    Before I answer this question from the Islamic perspective, we must first
    know that the Bible itself admits that it is a corrupted Book
    i don't want to talk about the bible and it's corruption it will take a lot of time but let us have a quick look
    `How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law
    of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it
    falsely?
    '
    (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:Cool"


    The Revised Standard Version makes it even
    clearer:
    "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of
    the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has
    made it
    (i.e., the bible) into a LIE. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:Cool"


    In either translation, we clearly see that
    the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had
    turned the Bible into a lie!



    See Also Deuteronomy
    31:25-29
    where Moses peace be upon him predicted the
    corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.



    According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try
    to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to
    happen. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they
    simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in
    the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible,
    which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible,
    which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...
    Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews
    and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their
    places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of
    ; and you
    shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn
    away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."
    Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth
    and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking
    words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never
    meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of
    Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.


    Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee,
    who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We
    believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among
    the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so
    much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places
    :
    they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is
    intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is
    not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in
    the Hereafter a heavy punishment."


    Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He
    will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire
    to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it
    Himself; "We (Allah) have, without a doubt, sent down the
    Message (The Quran); and We (Allah) will assuredly Guard it [from corruption].
    (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran.
    part 6
    If there is corruption in the Bible then you will find sexual desires as we find it in paradise of koran.
    look
    here i don't want to repeat
    http://christian-talk.forumotion.com/contradictions-in-the-bible-f27/is-jesus-god-t3070.htm?sid=63f372791100088aed10f5bc610d5a02#6661
    there is no mention of any pornography
    in the Noble Quran what so ever

    but i will show u the pornography and the corruption of the bible in a new topic since u raised this issue

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  LoveJesus on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:48 am

    why are you attacking us derprinz


    Last edited by LoveJesus on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  LoveJesus on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:50 am

    what have we done to you ?

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:59 am

    i am not attcking i am only trying to discuss some issues because i love you and i don't want you to go to hell
    think about it a little
    what if you are wrong ?
    i mean what blind faith are you following

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:00 am

    I ask you derprinz, why should we follow you messenger, who married a six years old girl?
    first you lie and say married a six years old girl

    Narrated Aisha: "The
    Prophet engaged me when I was a
    girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of
    Bani-al-Harith bin
    Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew
    (again) and
    my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with
    some of my girl
    friends.
    She called me, and I went to her, not
    knowing what she wanted to do
    to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the
    house. I was
    breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some
    water and rubbed my
    face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the
    house I saw some
    Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good
    luck." Then
    she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).
    Unexpectedly Allah's
    Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him,
    and at that time I
    was a girl of nine years of age.
    (Translation of Sahih
    Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58,
    Number 234)
    "
    Notice here that Aisha's mother and the Muslim women back then
    were ok with her
    marriage. It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many
    of the Muslim and
    non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young
    age

    Introduction
    Let's
    discuss the age of Aisha
    being 9
    when she married our Prophet in Islam!


    First
    of all, it is important to
    know:



    That no Muslim or even pagan
    objected to the marriage
    because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd
    world countries
    (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get
    married. Anyway,
    the reason no one objected was to the Prophet's marriage was:

    People
    used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to
    live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal
    and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.



    Marriage
    for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even
    today in many third-world non-Muslim and Muslim countries.




    Child brides as young as 8 (eight) were common
    among the Byzantine emperors and nobility!

    http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

    Prophet Muhammad's
    marriage with Aisha was
    100% legal and
    acceptable
    by all laws and Divine Religions!





    A 12-year old Christian girl getting married in
    Romania


    Birita Mihai, 15, and Ana Maria Cioaba, 12, walk
    into a church during their controversial wedding.


    So to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile
    for marrying a girl that was OFFERED
    TO HIM by her parents
    and was accepted by all
    of the people back then
    including the enemies of Islam, the pagans, is quite absurd.

    The pedophilia in the bible was quite
    different, because girls were raped at
    3-years of
    age by Moses and his men
    Also, in Exodus 21:7-11
    as further elaborated on
    below, girls were sold off as slave
    girls by their own fathers

    to other men. So most certainly, no one is qualified to call
    the Prophet of Islam a
    pedophile!

    Also didn't the Biblical
    Prophets marry 100s of wives each?

    Is it possible that some of those wives were little girls as
    well? It's both
    highly probable and possible!



    The
    fact that his own Biblical Prophets
    married 100s of wives each
    and fathers used to sell their
    daughters as slave girls to other men without any age limit makes it
    extremely possible
    and probable that several if not many of these wives were little
    girls between
    9 to 13, while the Prophets were MUCH MUCH OLDER than them.

    If his own
    grandmother who exited THOUSANDS of years later still married at 12,
    then what makes it
    impossible for girls during Biblical times to
    have married way
    much older men than them when they were little ones?


    Since
    there is no age limit for the girl to be
    sold by her own father as a slave girl to another man, WHO CAN HAVE SEX
    WITH HER,
    little girls were sold off and married off
    during biblical times at very young
    age to much much older men
    (in Exodus 21:9 above), and you are making fierce charges against Islam on Aisha's age?
    How
    do you respond to this?


    According to Christian resources, Mary was 12-14 when she had
    Jesus. You will also see proofs from the Jews' Holiest Book,
    the Talmud, that girls
    were married off before
    at
    the age of 3
    ,
    meaning that the Bible's Old Testament has no age limit on when girls
    can marry, and certainly the Jews had awfully abused it in the
    past. You will also
    see a section on the Prophets of the Bible
    who married
    hundreds of wives

    and some
    had
    even slept with their neighbor's wives
    and some had
    exposed their wives in the most disgusting
    PORNOGRAPHIC way to the entire world in the
    Bible.

    what about
    Mary, Jesus' Mother peace be upon both of them? How old was
    she when she got
    pregnant?


    The case of Mary the mother of
    Jesus comes to mind, in
    non biblical sources she was between 11-14 years old when she conceived
    Jesus. Mary
    had already been "BETROTHED" to Joseph before conceiving
    Jesus. Joseph was
    a much older man. therefore Mary was younger than 11-14 years of age
    when she was
    "BETHROED" to Joseph. We Muslims would never call Joseph a
    Child Molester,
    nor would we refer to the "Holy Ghost" of the Bible, that
    "Impregnated" Mary as a "Rapist" or "Adulterer".

    "....it is
    possible that Mary gave birth to
    her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen
    years of age
    ...."
    (
    Source)
    According to the "Oxford Dictionary
    Bible
    "

    commentary, Mary (peace be upon her) was was 12 years old when she
    became impregnated.

    So if I want to be as silly
    and ridiculous as many of the
    Christians, I would respond to them by saying that Mary was
    psychologically and
    emotionally devastated for getting pregnant at a very young
    age. And speaking of
    "child molesting", since most Christians believe that Jesus is the
    Creator of
    this universe, then why did GOD allow himself to enter life through a
    12-year old young
    girl's vagina? Please note that we Muslims love and respect
    Allah Almighty, Mary,
    Jesus and Allah's Message to the People of the Book (The Jews and
    Christians). In
    other words, we Muslims would never make fun of Christianity through
    such childish topic
    like this one as many ridiculous Christians do make fun of Islam
    through our Prophet's
    (peace be upon him) marriage.
    Joseph, Mary's husband, was
    "90 years old"

    when he married 12
    to 14-year old Mary
    ! Was he too a
    pedophile?
    Regarding the
    Marriage of Mary to Joseph, Catholic Encyclopaedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm),
    says
    :



    "When
    forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by
    some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had
    six children, two daughters and
    four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's
    brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced
    through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then
    twelve to fourteen years of age
    , Joseph,
    who was at the time ninety
    years old
    ,
    went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the
    choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation
    took place."

    What about
    the Bible's Prophets' marriages?



    12-
    What about
    the Bible's Prophets' marriages?



    When we read the Bible, we
    learn about some Prophets marrying
    many wives, even hundreds of wives in some cases. Let us look
    at some of the verses
    from the Old Testament:


    In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite
    amount of women without any limits to
    how many he can marry.


    In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles
    3:1-9, 14:3
    , King David
    had six wives and numerous
    concubines.


    In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300
    concubines.


    In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives
    and 60 concubines.


    And knowing that the Bible's Old Testament allowed before for men to have sex with girls who were at the age of 3,
    then it wouldn't surprise me that those Prophets who had 700 wives for
    instance,
    had
    many very young "teenage" girls before as their
    wives.

    Conclusion:


    Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was not a child molester as
    the haters of Islam
    claim. He was a Noble Messenger of God. Muhammad
    peace be upon him lived in a
    society and culture that existed 1400 years ago, and we must not judge
    what he or others
    did based on our standards today. It is wrong and foolish to
    do so.


    Last edited by derprinz on Wed 03 Jun 2009, 12:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:01 am

    Someone may ask why the prophet married Aisha well
    The Prophet married Aisha
    for the benefit of Islam and Humanity



    Lets analyse...
    1. The Prophet married Aisha primarily for three reasons:

    a. To reinforce the friendly relations already existing with Abu
    Bakr (his closest companion).

    b. To educate and train Aisha for the purposes of Islam.
    c. To utilise her capabilities for the sake of Islam.
    2. Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahy
    (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet. "He said, 'I saw
    you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He
    (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face.
    You are just like that
    ..." Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p.
    285.

    3. Aisha (r.a.) was born after her parents had embraced Islam. Therefore,
    she was free from the defilement of polytheism right from her birth.

    4. In her youth, already known for her striking beauty and her formidable
    memory,
    she came under the loving care and attention of the Prophet himself. As
    his wife and close companion she acquired from him knowledge and
    insight such as no woman has ever acquired.
    Aisha lived on almost
    fifty years after the passing away of the Prophet. She had been his
    wife for a decade. Much of this time was spent in learning and
    acquiring knowledge of the two most important sources of God's
    guidance, the Qur'an and the Sunnah of His Prophet.
    Aisha (r.a.) was one of the three wives (the other two being Hafsa (r.a.) and Umm Salama
    (r.a.) who memorised the Revelation. Like Hafsa (r.a.), she had her own script of the
    Qur'an written after the Prophet had died.
    So far as the Hadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aisha (r.a.) is one of four
    persons (the others being Abu Hurayra, Abdullah ibn Umar, and Anas ibn Malik) who
    transmitted more than two thousand sayings. From her, 2210 Hadith have come, out of which
    174 Hadith are commonly agreed upon by both Bukhari and Muslim.

    Many of her transmissions pertain to some of the most intimate aspects of personal
    behaviour which only someone in Aisha's position could have learnt. What is most important
    is that her knowledge of Hadith was passed on in written form by at least three persons
    including her nephew Urwah who became one of the greatest scholars among the generation
    after the Companions.
    It is the claim of the Scholars of Islam that without her, half of the Ilm-I-Hadith
    [knowledge, understanding of the Hadith (and Islam)] would have perished.
    5. Many of the learned companions of the Prophet and their followers
    benefited from Aishah's knowledge. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari once said:


    "If we companions of the Messenger of God had any difficulty
    on a matter, we asked Aisha about it."

    "Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Said ibn al-Musayyab that
    Abu Musa al-Ash'ari came to Aisha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant
    him peace, and said to her, "The disagreement of the companions in a matter which I
    hate to bring before you has distressed me." She said, "What is that? You did
    not ask your mother about it, so ask me." He said, "A man penetrates his wife,
    but becomes listless and does not ejaculate. "She said, "When the circumcised
    part passes the circumcised part ghusl is obligatory." Abu Musa added,
    "I shall never ask anyone about this after you."

    Al-Muwatta of Imam Malik, Hadith 2.75.
    Arwa Bin Zubair says,

    "I did not find anyone more proficient [than Aisha (r.a.)]
    in the knowledge of the Holy Qur'an, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram
    (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the
    Prophet used to consult Aisha (r.a.) in resolving intricate issued".

    Ibn Qayyim and Ibn Sa'ad, Jala-ul-Afham, vol. 2, p. 26.
    Abu Musa al-Ash'ari says:

    "Never had we (the companions) had any difficulty for the
    solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from
    her".

    Sirat-I-Aisha, on the authority of Trimidhi, p.
    163.
    6. As a teacher she had a clear and persuasive manner of speech and her
    power of oratory has been described in superlative terms by al-Ahnaf who said: "I
    have heard speeches of Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman and Ali and the Khulafa up to this day,
    but I have not heard speech more persuasive and more beautiful from the mouth of any
    person than from the mouth of Aisha."
    The Prophet said,
    "The superiority of 'Aisha to other ladies is like
    the superiority of Tharid (i.e. meat and bread dish) to other meals. Many men
    reached the level of perfection, but no woman reached such a level except Mary, the
    daughter of Imran and Asia, the wife of Pharaoh."


    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Narrated by Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari
    Hadith 4.643.
    Musa Ibn Talha (r.a.) says,

    "I did not see anyone more eloquent than Aisha
    (r.a.)"

    Mustadrak of Hakim, vol.4, p.11.
    7. Men and women came from far and wide to benefit from her knowledge.
    Aisha's great interest in the study of the Qur'an is understandable. She was an
    eye-witness to a number of revelations and had therefore a clear idea of the circumstances
    in which they were revealed. It was on her bed alone (and no other consort's) that the
    Prophet received Wahy (Divine Revelations) several times. This helped her in interpreting
    the verses.
    8. At the time of the Prophet's death, the Prophet's head was on her lap.
    It was in her quarters that the Prophet was buried.
    The life of Aisha (R) is a proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that
    she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also a proof that a woman can
    exert influence over men and women and provide them with inspiration and leadership. Aisha
    (R) is a continuing inspiration and role model to today's youth who are diligently
    searching for an example amongst the pop stars, movie actresses and sports stars. May the
    memory of her's live forever in the heart of the Muslim Ummah and may Allah grant her the
    highest abode in Paradise...Ameen.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Johntheservant on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 3:45 pm

    Derpriz wrote:And knowing that the
    Bible's Old Testament allowed
    before for men to have sex with girls who were at the age of 3,
    then it wouldn't surprise me that those Prophets who had 700 wives for
    instance, had
    many very young "teenage" girls before as their
    wives.
    You are a liar and no where the says to marry a 3 year old girl. You are full of deception. I have never come across a verse in the Bible that says so. Show us the verse that shows that Bible allows men to marry a 3 year old girl? If you cannot find one then make one as you are a liar.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 5:33 pm

    Koran 33:52 It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those (captives or slaves) whom your right hand possesses. And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.
    Let me ask you the following:

    • What was the age of Fatima (daughter of Muhammed) when she got married?
    • Why did Muhammed reject Abu Bakr's (Father of Ayesha) proposal to marry Fatima?
    • How old was Ali when he married fatima?
    • How was Fatima killed?
    • Why was Ayesha against Ali (son-in-law of Muhammed) and what words she used against Ali?
    • How did Ayesha treat Khadija (Muhammed's first wife) and other wives of Muhammed?






    _________________


    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Wed 03 Jun 2009, 12:10 pm

    You are a liar and no where the says to marry a 3 year old girl.
    Numbers 31:17-18 "Now
    kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save
    for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."


    In the Torah (In the Book of Numbers in the Bible), after the conquest of Midian and
    Moab, and the great venereal plague, Moses (peace be on him) ordered that all the women
    "who have known a man" be killed but that "all the young girls, who have
    not known a man by lying with him" be kept alive for the Israelites.Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent
    virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the
    Babylonian Talmud:

    "Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years
    and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'


    Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed,
    subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.



    Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the
    age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

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    Is Jesus God?

    Post  Irv Everett on Wed 03 Jun 2009, 3:24 pm

    Dear Derprinz,



    I have taken note of your persistent rebellion, of your rejection of the Holy Scriptures and one can only conclude that God is dealing with your heart. I am reminded of the conversion of Saul in Acts 9:3-6. I am sure you remember, Saul was on a journey and as he drew near to Damascus, a light shined round about him, a light from heaven. And he fell to the earth, and he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul why persecutest thou me? And he said Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

    Now, did you take notice of the statement “ it is hard to kick against the pricks”? This is where I took notice of your rebellion and your rejection. Who do you think is performing this goading? It is God. You are only hurting yourself, much like the ox that kicks against the goad. I am also reminded of Jonah and his rebellion against God, Jonah 1:1-17. Remember he was suppose to warn the people of Nineveh but took off for Tarshish. Jonah hid on a boat trying to escape God’s plan. He could not hide from God and neither can you. God dealt with Jonah and God is dealing with you. God has a work for you, just like he did for Saul and Jonah.

    Now, with all that being said; I would like to help you find your way through the Scriptures to God and we can easily follow this path down what is known as Romans Road. We can start with Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9, and 5:1, ending with the Sinner’s prayer for salvation. This path is much easier than your rebellion and your rejection. You are on a destructive path and we at this forum are praying for you and for your salvation. We could just as easily ask God to fulfill his curse upon evildoers because of your disruption; but forgiveness is first and foremost upon our hearts. May God have his perfect will and way upon you, may you find God’s grace and mercy, and most of all may you receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and as your personal Savior. Blessings, Irv

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Wed 03 Jun 2009, 6:53 pm

    dear Ivr
    i want to thank you for your reply and for the emotions you have toward me
    i want to thank everybody else in this forum
    i know that you are good people and you love good for me and for everybody else and i am sure that you don't want me to be in Hell
    i have same feelings for you my brothers and sisters
    that's why i am here in this beautiful forum were we discuss and seek the truth using our mind and hearts as jesus peace be upon him said
    "And Jesus answered him, The first of all
    the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
    And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with
    all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
    this is the first commandment."
    Mark 12:29-30
    Jesus (pbuh) did not want his followers to believe everything they were told
    on "blind faith." Rather, he wanted his followers
    to believe "with all thy mind."
    i want you to know that i didn't come to islam through blind faith read the bible carefully and read the Quran carefully than judge friend
    http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php
    listen brother
    even who follow Budha think he love him
    there are people who worship a cow and think it's God and love him
    but where the truth is ?
    that's why we should use our mind not only a blind faith

    i want to state those verses in Quran please read it
    “O People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your
    religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, the son of
    Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word which He
    bestowed on Mary, and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His
    Messengers. Say not:"Three!" Cease! it is better for you. For Allah
    is One God, Glory be Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him
    belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is
    All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.”
    (Quran 4:171)

    Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou
    find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the
    believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because
    amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced
    the world, and they are not arrogant.
    (The Noble Quran 5:82)
    When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messengers, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because
    of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord, we believe.
    Inscribe us as among the witnesses.
    (
    The Noble Quran 5:83)

    Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue
    with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth
    best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance
    .
    (The Noble Quran 16:125)

    and remember muslims love Jesus
    u can not be a muslim if u don't love Jesus
    please think a little
    u know that this life is short
    ask yourself what if what derprinz say is true ?

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Littlelamb on Thu 04 Jun 2009, 5:03 pm

    Derprinz, I am praying for your SALVATION. May the LORD BLESS you today! I love you

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 04 Jun 2009, 7:44 pm

    You never answered my questions. Let us see first how Koran was revealed to Mohammed. I quote
    Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside" (Koran 33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311)
    As you have said
    Derprinz wrote:Someone may ask why the prophet married Aisha well The Prophet married Aisha for the benefit of Islam and Humanity
    I Agree, Ayesha disclosed the secret of Mohammed and his revelations from Allah. Now let us see how convenient it was for Mohammed as Ayesha alleged.

    He was allowed to have more than four wives (Quran 33:50). He was allowed to sleep with any believing woman who offered herself to him (33:50). He was allowed to have concubines (33:50). He was allowed to sleep with his adopted son's ex-wife (33:40,50). Allah conveniently made all women lawful to Muhammad.

    Now let me quote Ayesha's words regarding Khadija, who literally sponsored Mohammed financially for his quest for Islam
    Sahih Bukhari Hadith: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 168:

    Narrated by Ayesha: Once Hala bint Khuwaylid, Khadija's sister, asked the permission of the Prophet to enter. On that, the Prophet remembered the way Khadija used to ask permission, and that upset him. He said, "O Allah! Hala!" So I became jealous and said, "What makes you remember an old woman amongst the old women of Quraish an old woman (with a toothless mouth) of red gums who died long ago, and in whose place Allah has given you somebody better than her?"
    How gracious was Ayesha to the woman who literally financed Mohammed and his quest. Mohammed, had lot of liberties for himself but for others it was totally opposite. He could marry 9 years old Ayesha but it was not allowed for Abu Bakr to marry his (Mohammed) daughter for he was too old for her (Fatima). For the age of Fatima (Mohammed's daughter), I will quote from a muslim website so that you may have no excuse.

    The Story of Hazrat Fatima(SA), daughter of the Holy Prophet.

    Marriage of Ali and Fatima
    After one years stay in Madina when Fatima(SA) was about 18 years old that proposals for marriage began to be received by the Prophet who politely refused to accept by simply saying that it is in the hands of Allah, that he was awaiting Allah’s decree in this matter.

    Fatima (SA)was the model of Prophet’s teaching among women just as Ali(AS) was the best embodiment of his instructions and manly qualities among men. They were the most suitable couple to be married. But Ali(AS) was too modest to speak about it. After some persuasion from friends he finally went to see the Prophet in the mosque and proposed for marriage. Prophet told Fatima about it and asked her whether she would approve. After receiving her consent the marriage of Fatima(SA) and Ali(AS) took place in the simplest possible manner. Ali(AS)sold his shield of armour for 200 Dirhams,brought the money to the Holy Prophet who added a similar amount and asked his companions to buy household goods to set up home for the Holy Family.Marriage was solemnized by the Prophet himself and after marriage the couple went to live in a separate house next to the House of the Prophet around the Mosque.

    Death
    On 3rd of the month of Jamad al Thani Hazrat Fatima(SA) died. This was about 90 days after the death of her Holy father. Asma binte Umais in the same house to help her household work tells the story of her death in a very moving manner. When the day arrived she prepared food for her children, then she told Asma that she was going to her prayer room. She would say Takbeer loudly at various intervals. When Asma does not hear the sound of Takbeer she should go out to the mosque and tell Hazrat Ali(AS) about the death of his wife. If in the meantime the children come home give them food before telling them about the death of their mother. Hasan and Husain arrived and Usma brought some food for them. They said they do not eat without their mother and she had to tell the children of the death of their mother. Both entered the prayer room and stayed with her for a while. Hazrat Ali (AS)arrived and prepared for the last rites. When he was giving her last bath he cried loudly. Asma asked the reason and he said he could not bear to see the wound by her side when the door of the house fell on her due to commotion by some of the companions of the Prophet when they all wanted Ali(AS) to come out of the house for the oath of Allegiance to Abubakr. After performing the last rites she was taken to the cemetery of Baqii in the darkness of the night for burial. Very few family members were present at the burial of the daughter of the Prophet. Some historians say that she was buried in her own house which became part of the Masjid-e-Nabavi during the reign of Umavi Caliph Umar Ibne Abdul Aziz.

    For Mohammed and his followers, it was ok to marry a child, but when it came to his own daughter, he needed instructions from Allah. And again, instructions came according to the wishes of Mohammed as Ayesha said. Note the age for marrying in the time of Mohammed was 18 years and not 6 years or 9 years.

    The hatred between Ali and Ayesha was very intense and she never liked taking his name. My question is: Is this the way to treat your prophet's son-in-law? She was too happy at the death of Ali
    When Ayesha [ra] was informed about the murder of Ali [ra], she said: ‘And she threw down her staff and settled upon her place of abode, like the traveller happy to return home’

    Shaykh Kamaluddin Dinori also records in his famed work Hayat al-Hewan, Volume 1 page 43; Tadkhirath al Khawwas, page 181 and Shaykh ul Mudhira page 156.
    Do not misquote Bible and lie about it. You lied when you quoted Numbers 31:17-18 as it no where says 3 years. Neither Talmud says so and Bible is not like Koran that it needs help of Hadiths. Therefore, Talmud had no authority over Bible and do not mix up Bible with Koran. As Ayesha said Koran only fulfilled the wishes and desires of Mohammed.

    _________________


    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 04 Jun 2009, 8:19 pm

    Numbers 31:16
    Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

    Midianites went to war against God and sent their women into the camp of Israel to allure them so that they could draw them to idolatry and they succeeded in doing so, and made them worship Ballpeor and because of this there was plague among the people of Israelites and 24,000 died.
    And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

    And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

    And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

    And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. (Numbers 25:5-9)
    Numbers 31:17
    Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

    The order was to kill those who had lain with Israelite men; and as the adulterers (Israelites) had been put to death, so now the adulteresses (Midianites); or they were ordered to, be slain, even all of them, so that they no more entice other Israelites into worshiping Baalpeor.

    Numbers 31:18
    But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    Moses no where allowed to keep concubines rather Israelites were merely permitted to possess them as female slaves, educating them in their families, and employing them as domestics; for the laws concerning fornication, concubinage, and marriage, were in full force, and prohibited an Israelite even from marrying a captive, without delays and previous formalities; and if he afterwards divorced her, he was to set here at liberty, "because he had humbled her."

    Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. (Numbers 25:44)

    But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. (Deuteronomy 20:14)

    When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

    Where is 3 years girl rule? You only made it up to defend your prophet. Why do you cover Ayesha's marriage by lying and deceiving? Think it over, why do you follow a prophet whom you have to cover with lying and deception? You are fooling yourself and no one else.

    God bless you

    _________________


    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:10 pm

    Why Did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
    Have More Than Four Wives?


    Some Islamic
    critics tend to criticize Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) because he had more than four
    wives. They ask, "If the Quran limited each man to have 4 wives (Surah
    4:3) then how come the Prophet was able to have more?"


    Some people
    may see this as a privilege to the Prophet. However, with privileges did come
    restrictions as well.


    Qiyam Al Layl
    (prayers at two third of the night) are not compulsory on Muslims, however they
    were compulsory on the Prophet.


    Surah
    17:79


    And during a part of the
    night, pray Tahajjud beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will
    raise you to a position of great glory.

    This verse is
    directly addressed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
    (See Tafsir of Ibn Kathir)

    So here we see
    an example of God making exceptions to Prophet Muhammad in certain situations.



    Back
    to the issue of the exception of why the Prophet was allowed to keep more than
    four wives. Well there was wisdom behind the marriage to each of the wives of
    the Prophet


    It should be noted that the special exception to the prophet concerning the
    maximum number of wives [Qur'an, 33: 50] includes also special restrictions on
    him and his wives from privileges available to all others. For example, his
    wives as "mothers of the believers" were not allowed to remarry after
    him [Qur'an 33: 53]. If the Prophet were required to divorce wives beyond the
    maximum of four, it would have done them injustice; to be divorced and
    disallowed to remarry. Furthermore, for each of the Prophet's marriages there
    was a specific lesson, social or legislative. By divorcing some of his wives,
    those lessons are effectively negated, especially the unifying function of
    marrying women from different clans and backgrounds. This diversity allowed
    close observation of his private life and teachings and communicating them to
    their respective folks. Also, unlike any ordinary Muslim, the Prophet was not
    allowed to divorce any of his wives and marrying others [33:52].


    Take a look here
    http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/why-was-the-prophet-polygamous/


    He was allowed to sleep with any believing woman who offered herself to him (33:50). He was allowed to have concubines (33:50)

    In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1
    Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3
    , King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

    In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700
    wives and 300 concubines.


    In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son
    Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.


    let’s take a look at the circumstances accompanying the Prophet's marriages

    The wives he took were all widows or divorced with the exception of `A'ishah. None of these widowed and divorced wives was particularly known for physical charms or
    beauties. Some of them were senior to him in age, and practically all of them
    sought his hand and shelter, or were presented to him as gifts, but he accepted
    them as legal wives.

    There were many prisoners of war captured by the Muslims who were entitled to security and protection. They were not killed or denied their rights: human or physical. On the contrary, they were helped to settle down through legal marriages to Muslims instead of being taken as concubines and common mistresses. That also
    was another moral burden on the Muslims, which had to be shouldered jointly as
    a common responsibility. Here, again, Muhammad carried his share and took some
    responsibilities by marrying two of those captives.

    4. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) contracted some of his
    marriages for sociopolitical reasons. His principal concern was the future of Islam.
    He was interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. That is why he
    married the young daughter of Abu Bakr, his First Successor, and the daughter
    of `Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwayriyyah that he
    gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani Al-Mustaliq and their
    allied tribes. It was through marriage to Safiyyah that he neutralized a great
    section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mariyah, the Copt from
    Egypt, as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. It was also a gesture of friendship with a neighboring king that Muhammad married Zaynab who was presented to him by the Negus of Abyssinia in whose territory the early Muslims found safe refuge.

    5. By contracting most of these marriages, the Prophet (peace and
    blessings be upon him) meant to eliminate the caste or class system,
    racial and national pride and superiority, and religious prejudices. He married
    some of the humblest and poorest women. There was his marriage to Mariyah from
    Egypt, a Jewish woman of a different religion and race, and a Negro girl from
    Abyssinia. He was not satisfied with merely teaching brotherhood and equality: actions
    speak louder than words.


    He was allowed to sleep with his adopted son's ex-wife (33:40,50)


    Some of the Prophet's marriages were for legislative
    reasons and to abolish certain corrupt traditions. Such was his marriage to
    Zaynab, divorcee of the freed slave Zayd. Before Islam, the Arabs did not allow
    divorcees to remarry. Zayd was adopted by the Prophet (peace and blessings be
    upon him) and called his son as was the custom among the Arabs before Islam.
    But Islam abrogated this custom and disapproved of its practice. Prophet
    Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was the first man to express this
    disapproval in a practical way. So he married the divorcee of his
    "adopted" son to show that adoption does not really make the adopted
    child a real son of the adopting father and also to show that marriage is
    lawful for divorcees. Incidentally, this very Zaynab was Muhammad's cousin, and
    had been offered to him in marriage before she married Zayd. He refused her
    then, but after she was divorced he accepted her for the two legislative
    purposes: the lawful marriage of divorcees and the real status of adopted
    children. The story of this Zaynab has been associated in some minds with
    ridiculous fabrications regarding the moral integrity of Muhammad. These
    vicious fabrications are not even worth considering here (see Qur'an, 33: 36,
    37, 40).

    These are the circumstances accompanying the Prophet's marriages. For the
    Muslims there is no doubt whatsoever that Muhammad had the highest standards of morality and was the perfect model for mankind under all circumstances.


    The statistics show that the prophet's marriage to Aisha at her young
    age was an exception and not a norm of his other marriages. Furthermore "a
    paedophile's main mode of sexual satisfaction is with prepubescent girls",
    which is contradictory to the 91% of prophet's marriage to women 17 years and
    over. An unbiased examination of Prophet's life and his marriages to his wives
    blatantly rejects the notion of his lifestyle fitting that of a paedophile. All
    his brides were aged widows (except Aisha and Marya).

    Moreover, according to the criteria in the references cited above in Synopsis of Psychiatry, a vast majority
    of paedophiles possess a history of exhibitionism, voyeurism, or rape. Again,
    there is no single reference from either religious or secular sources that the
    noble Prophet ever indulged in such sadistic behaviour (God forbid). This truth
    is observed and accepted by both Muslims and unbiased non-Muslims scholars.


    "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of
    the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel
    anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of
    the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which
    may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way
    of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of
    Muhammad
    (Madras, 1932), p. 4.


    Khadijah was a sensible, noble, pious, chaste, and generous woman. She
    was given glad tidings of entering Paradise. Allah (the Almighty) ordered His
    Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) to give her glad tidings of having a
    palace in Paradise which is built from jewels with neither noise nor toil in
    it.


    Of all Prophet Muhammad's wives, Khadijah had a special place in his
    heart. `Aishah said: "I did not feel jealous of any of the wives of the
    Prophet (peace be upon him) as much as I did of Khadijah though I did not see
    her, but the Prophet (peace be upon him) used to mention her very often, and
    when ever he slaughtered a sheep, he would cut its parts and send them to the
    women friends of Khadijah. Once when I said to him, "(You treat Khadijah
    in such a way) as if there is no woman on earth except Khadijah," he would
    say, "Khadijah was such-and-such, and from her I had children."

    `Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said that Allah's Messenger
    (peace be upon him) praised Khadijah every time he remembered her before he
    would leave the house. One day he (peace be upon him) praised Khadijah, then
    `Aishah felt so jealous and said: "Why do you remember an old woman, dead
    long ago, while Allah has given you a better one in her stead?" The
    Prophet (peace be upon him) got very angry and told her that Allah had not
    given him a better one in her stead as she (Khadijah) was the only person to
    believe in him when all people disbelieved, the only person to believe him when
    all people belied him, and the only one to bear him children when all his wives
    did not bear him children. Upon hearing this, A'ishah decided never to speak
    bad of Khadijah again.


    Last edited by derprinz on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:21 pm

    U talked a lot why u are not muslims let me remind u something

    "To those who reject Our Signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening
    will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the Garden,
    until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our
    reward for those in sin".
    (The Noble Quran 7:40 )
    "If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We
    should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to
    Gardens of Bliss"
    .(The Noble Quran 5:65 )



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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:25 pm

    let's go back to our subject
    why jesus isn't God

    10) God cannot be born
    -God was not born
    -Jesus was born

    9) There is no explicit verses in any scripture or text especially the Bible that said so
    -Jesus never said “I’m God”
    -Jesus never said “Worship me”
    -No explicit statement ever in the Bible that said so

    Cool No one has seen God at any time
    -No one has ever seen God
    -People saw Jesus
    -No one can see God in this life

    7)
    Trinity concept was not taught by Jesus. This whole concept of Trinity
    did not come about until the 3rd century of the church and this is not
    formulated as a doctrine and must be believed in until 325 AD

    -Jesus never taught the Trinity
    -Word Trinity no where in the Bible
    -Trinity is something man made

    6) God by His very nature is self-sufficent, He does not need anything to continue His existence
    -God don’t sleep, eat, drink, etc
    -Jesus slept, ate food, drank
    -Jesus is a messenger not God

    5) Jesus claim that God knowledge is greater than him
    -God knows everything
    -Jesus didn’t know everything
    -Jesus is a messenger not God

    4) Jesus explicitly stated that he is not God
    -“This is eternal life: to know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3)

    3) Son of God is not an exclusive title
    -God doesn’t die
    -God doesn’t have children
    -God doesn’t have human needs

    2) God cannot change
    -Only God is perfect
    -God doesn’t change
    -God message has always been the same

    1) God is the essence of worship
    What God wants of you:
    -Worship God alone and not His creations
    -Obey God and not your desires
    -Submit and surrender to God alone in peace

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  derprinz on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:30 pm

    2- Jesus never said I am God.


    Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone,
    then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim
    somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at
    least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once
    with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the
    OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where
    God says he is God:



    Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins

    Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go
    down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation:

    Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak
    unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye
    shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God.


    Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

    Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.

    Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.

    Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

    Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden
    riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which
    call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.


    Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,

    Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

    Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and
    that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people,
    neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel,
    neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.


    Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

    Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

    Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

    So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. SO if Jesus is God,
    then how come he never said it once like the God of the OT? This is not
    a coincidence.

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 05 Jun 2009, 11:27 pm

    You have run out of excuses. If David married many wives God never approved of his actions and David repented of his sins. Solomon never repented and he died in sin. So you cannot justify Mohammed's marriages with the sins of David and Solomon. Lame Excuse

    Second, I told you that Koran is not word of God but it was wishes and desires of Mohammed as Ayesha said. Either say that the hadith I quoted does not exist or say it exists.

    Thirdly, Mohammed had double standards. He married many times but for his daughter, Ali was not allowed to marry. So when Fatima died he went on marriage spree. Why was he not allowed? Well Mohammed had first hand knowledge of multiple marriages so he did not want his daughter to suffer like his other wives suffered at the hands of Ayesha.

    Fourth you talk of Qiyam Al Layl, what it has to do with concessions Mohammed got in women? Lame Excuse

    Fifth
    Had GOD willed, they would not have worshiped IDOLS. We did not appoint you as their guardian, nor are you their advocate. (6:107)
    See Allah never allowed Mohammed to guide them so you should also follow Allah and Mohammed and stop preaching your inferior religion to us.

    Sixth I quoted how koran was revealed and if you have forgotten, let me remind you again
    Narrated Aisha: I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside" (Koran 33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311)
    Therefore, why should we follow the desires of Mohammed. It is simply the word of Mohammed and not word of God.

    Seventh you do not even know that it was Jesus Christ who talked in Old Testament. We do not call Jesus God because of His miracles and healing He did but He is mentioned as God in Old Testament.
    Serve the LORD with fear
    and rejoice with trembling.
    Kiss the Son, lest He be angry
    and you be destroyed in your
    way... (Psalm 2:11-12)
    He introduced Himself as I AM in the Old Testament and also introduced Himself as I AM in the New Testament.
    Derprinz wrote:U talked a lot why u are not muslims let me remind u something

    "To those who reject Our Signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening
    will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the Garden,
    until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our
    reward for those in sin".(The Noble Quran 7:40 )
    "If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We
    should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to
    Gardens of Bliss".(The Noble Quran 5:65 )
    I have no fear of Allah for he is nothing and I do not even care about the warnings of Koran because it is not the word of God. I would never like to believe in a book (koran) that according to Ayesha fulfills the wishes and desires of Mohammed. I would never follow a prophet who had double standards. For someone else's daughter different and for his own daughter different. I would never follow a prophet who longed for a son but God never gave him any.

    You know you have run out excuses and you cannot even explain the actions of your prophet. What best you can come up with, David married so many times and Solomon married so many times. Read Bible and these marriages were considered evil by God.

    Let me prove Jesus is God from Koran

    [10:34] Say, "Can any of your IDOLS initiate creation, then repeat it?" Say, "GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it."

    Although Jesus is no idol but here Allah puts a challenge to Idols (deities) who claim to be creators. We believe in Jesus as God and let us see how Jesus fulfills this challenge.

    Koran 3:49
    I (Jesus) create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission.”

    See Jesus is a creator and He shatters the claim Allah has put. I know that you will say that Jesus made it with permission of God. Well permission is only granted when someone has the power and authority to do so. Koran also acknowledges Jesus as Creator. In koran who created besides Allah? - Jesus - and who is Jesus? - God.

    Say, "GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it Therefore, according to Koran Koran say Jesus initiated creation. I have proved to you from your Koran that Jesus is God. I do not think that there is any point in discussing it further unless and until you come up with another lame excuse and lies.

    _________________


    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ. (Philemon 1:3)


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    Re: Is jesus God ?

    Post  crystalriver on Thu 05 Aug 2010, 5:13 am

    ChristianLady wrote:Irv and Daniel very well explained. I agree with you Daniel that Jesus talked of you and me and not about Himself. People misquote this verse a lot and say even Jesus did not know about the hour. How sorry I feel for them as they are misled by their own ignorance. I also like to ask one question to Derprinz. If you do not believe Jesus as God then why are you discussing this? I mean if I do not believe in something, then that thing does not exist for me. Why should I waste my time in discussing??? Mad
    THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR STATEMENT,"IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS AS GOD THEN WHY ARE YOU DISCUSSING THIS". THIS IS EXACTLY THE WAY I BELEIEVE. PEOPLE WHO SAY THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD, REALLY DO, BECAUSE THEY ARE DISCUSSING THE QUESTION WITH SOMEONE.
    REVEREND WILLIAM BAKER

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    Re: Is jesus God ?

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