The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

WordofLife Thu 25 Jun 2009, 8:21 am

By: Richard M. Riss

Critics of the current awakening have said that they believe that the so-called "Laughing Revival," and "Toronto Blessing" have been very damaging to the historic faith because they do not emphasize the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

From my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth. I would be very surprised if there were any significant leaders in the current move of God who did not believe the resurrection to be central to Christianity.

My first book was actually on this topic, and it was entitled THE EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST (Minneapolis, Minn.: Bethany Fellowship, 1977). It's out of print now, so I'll say a little bit about it here.

It was written as a paper for a course that I took in 1973 at the University of Rochester, taught by the well known philosopher Richard Taylor. This course, entitled, "Concepts of the Soul," was jointly offered by the U of R and Colgate-Rochester Divinity School. We were asked to write a final paper describing what we believed to be the truth with respect to the existence of life beyond death, and to state our reasons for those beliefs. My view was the Christian view, and the epistemological basis for it was in the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Although he was not a Christian, Richard Taylor was one of the few secular philosophers at the University of Rochester to give me a good grade on a paper of this kind. In his comments he said, among other things, that "It does indeed prove something, namely, that in the areas of Philosophy and Religion, one can prove anything."

Some of the chapter headings were "The Testimony of the Changed Lives of the Early Christians," "Circumstantial Evidences for the Resurrection of Christ," "and "Eyewitness Testimony in the New Testament."

Here's part of chapter eleven, "The Change of Sabbath as Evidence for Christ's Resurrection":

One monumental indication of the resurreciton of Christ concerns the Sabbath. In the first few years of Christianity, all the Christians were Jews (Acts 10:45), 11:18). The Jewish Sabbath has always been kept on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. Yet the early Christians, who were Jewish, met for worship on the first day of the week, Sunday. This was considered the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10), because Jesus had been resurrected on the first day of the week (Mark 16:9, Luke 24:1-7, John 20:1, 19).

The practice of assembling together on the first day of the week began the week after Christ's resurrection had taken place (John 20:26). The practice of gathering together on the first day of the week is also mentioned in Acts 20:7 and I Corinthians 16:2.

To change a tradition such as the day of sabbath among Jews would ordinarily have been exceedingly difficult. The Jewish sabbath day is observed in obedience to the fourth commandment, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it" (Ex. 20:8-1).

The letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the Magnesians, chapter 9, refers to observation of the Lord's Day rather than the traditional Sabbath, in honor of Christ's resurrection: "How, then, shall we be able to live apart from Him, seeing that the prophets were His disciples in the Spirit and expected Him as their Master, and that many who were brought up in the old order have come to the newness of hope? They no longer observe the Jewish Sabbaths, but keep holy the Lord's day, on which, through Him and through His death, our life arose" (Ignatius of Antioch, "Epistle to the Magnesians," chapter 9, reprinted in Francis Glimm, THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS [Washington: The Catholic University of America Press, 1962], pp. 98-99). This letter to the Magnesians is one of seven letters writen by Ignatius of Antioch before he was thrown to the beasts in the Flavian amphitheatre in Rome in the second half of the reign of the Emperor Trajan (A.D. 98-117).

The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 15, also mentions this practice: "This is why we also observe the eighth day with rejoicing, on which Jesus also rose from the dead, and having shown himself ascended to heaven." (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 15, reprinted in Edgar J. Goodspeed, THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS [New York: Harper and Brothers, 1950], p. 41). The Epistle of Barnabas, it is agreed among scholars, could not have been written later than A.D. 135 and might have been written as early as A.D. 70 or 71.

In the APOLOGY TO CAESAR of Justin Martyr, chapter 67, we read, "But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the fist day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead" (Justin Martyr, THE FIRST APOLOGY, chapter LXVII, reprinted in Alexander Roberts, ANTE-NICENE CHRISTIAN LIBRARY [Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1867], vol. II, p. 66). Justin Martyr died in A.D. 165, when he suffered martyrdom in the reign of Marcus Aurelius, according to CHRONICON PASCHALE.

In the DIDACHE, or the TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES, we read, "And on the Lord's Day, after you have come together, break bread and offer the Eucharist, having first confessed your offences, so that your sacrifice may be pure" (THE DIDACHE 14:1, reprinted in Francis Glimm, THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS [Washington: The Catholic University of America Press, 1962], p. 1820). The DIDACHE was held in great repute by the early church, and was probably in circulation among the churches prior to A.D. 70.

In his ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY, Book III, chapter 27, Eusebius wrote, "They observed the sabbath and the rest of the disciples of the Jews just like them, but on Sundays they performed ceremonies like ours in commemoration of the Lord's Resurrection. Therefore, because of such practices they recieved their name, since the name of Ebionites signifies the poverty of their understanding, for the poor man is called by this name among the Hebrews" (Eusebius, ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY, Book II, chapter 27, reprinted in Roy J. Deferrari, EUSEBIUS PAMPHILI ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY [Washington: The Catholic University of America Press, 1953], p. 184).

Pliny the Younger, whom Trajan had sent to govern the province of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in a letter in A.D. 112 to the Roman Emperor about the practice of Christians in Bithynia on this "fixed day": "They had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honour of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal prupose, but to abstain from theft, robbery and adultery, to commit no breach of trust and not to deny a deposit when called upon to restore it" (Plinius Caecillius Secundus, C., Ep. X. 96, reprinted in Betty Radice, Pliny LETTERS AND PANEGYRICUS [Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1969], p. 289.

As can be seen from these examples, references from early sources concerning the practice of the first Christians, most of whom were Jewish, establish that they had established the first day of the week as the sabbath day in commemoration of the resurrection. It would be extremely difficult to find any other explanation for this abrupt change in the tradition of these people.

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

googleboy5 Thu 25 Jun 2009, 6:53 pm

please
tell me why the are those
Contradictions In the
Resurrection Story

1. Matthew 28:1 states two women (Mary Magdalene, and the other
Mary) came to the tomb; Mark 16:1 states it was three women (Mary Magdalene, and Mary
the mother of James, and Salome); Luke 24:10 agrees it was three women but gives a different list
of three than Mark (Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James); John 20:1 states it was only Mary Magdalene.

2. Mark 16:2 states "the sun had
risen" at the time of this visit, while John 20:1 states "it was still
dark."

3. Matthew 28:2 says "an angel"
"came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it"; Mark 16:5 says the women encountered "a
young man sitting at the right" of the tomb (rather than upon the stone); Luke 24:4 says they saw "two
men" who "suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing"; in John 20:1, Mary Magdalene saw nothing other than a moved stone.

4. There is also a discrepancy as to
whatever dialogue occurred between this angel(s) or man (men) and the women: Matthew 28:5-7 and Mark 16:6-7 generally agree the women were
told that Jesus (peace be upon him) had risen, and instructed to advise the disciples that
"He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of
you into Galilee, there you will see Him" (Matthew 28:7), and ; Luke 24:6-7 contains no instruction to advise the disciples
about an appearance by Issa in Galilee.

5 To whom did Jesus (peace be upon
him) appear first: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary as Matthew 28:9 claims? Mary Magdalene only as Mark 16:9 claims? Cephas (Peter) and then the other disciples,
as 1 Corinthians 15:5 claims? Matthew 28:9 claims that Issa (peace be upon him) appeared
before the women even had reported to the disciples what the found (or didnt) at the tomb.
Also in Mark 16:9 the appearance to Mary Magdalene was before Mary made
any report to the disciples. However, John and Luke report no appearance before the
women reported an empty tomb to the disciples.

6. Which disciples went to the tomb:
Peter alone (Luke 24:12)? Peter and John (John 20:2-8)? Did the disciples believe the reports of the
women (or woman) and proceed to Galilee, as Matthew 28:16 claims? Or did they disbelieve these reports as Mark 16:11 and Luke 24:11 claim?

7. In appearing to the disciples, to
whom did Jesus (peace be upon him) first appear: All eleven together (Matthew 28:17-18)? Two of them on the road, then to all eleven
together (Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31)? To ten of the eleven (minus
Thomas) together (John 20:19-24)? To Peter, then the others (1 Corinthians 15:5)? The story recounted in John 20:25-29 is all premised on an appearance of Jesus (peace
be upon him) before the disciples at which Thomas was not present! Matthew 28:17-18, Mark 16:12-14 and Luke 24:13-31 all disagree
with John about any such meeting taking place in the absence of Thomas!

8. In Acts and the Gospel of Luke, the
disciples were commanded to stay in Jerusalem and, in fact, met Jesus (peace be upon him)
there (see Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:33, 47, 49). In Matthew 28:10 and Mark 16:6-7, the disciples are commanded to
go to Galilee, and in Matthew 28:16-18, we are told they see Jesus (peace be upon
him) there, not in or near Jerusalem!

9. Mark says that after appearing
before the eleven disciples together in Gallilee, Jesus (peace be upon him) ascended to
Heaven (Mark 16: 14, 19). Luke says Jesus (peace be upon him) ascended
to Heaven at Bethany after walking with the disciples some time (Luke 24:50-51). John says Jesus (peace be upon him) appeared to
the disciples at three times and that some of these appearances were near the Sea of
Gallilee (Lake Tiberias) (John 21:1, 14). According to Acts the disciples were at Mt.
Olivet, a days journey from Jerusalem, when the ascension occurred (Acts 1:9-12).

10. In 1 Corinthians 15:5-8, it is claimed that Jesus (peace be upon
him) appeared to more than five hundred witnesses before his ascent to heaven - a claim
directly contradicted at least by Mark, who says the ascension occurred immediately after
an appearance before the eleven disciples (Mark 16: 14, 19).

spiritfilled Thu 25 Jun 2009, 8:14 pm

Let me put Resurrection account for you:

The first thing that happened was the earthquake reported in Matthew 28:2-4. An earthquake took place. An angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled the heavy stone from the door, and sat on it. The Roman guards shook for fear of them, and became like dead men.
Mary Magdalene, the other Mary, the mother of James (Mark 16:1), Salome (Mark 16:1), and other women (Luke 24:1) went down to the tomb with spices hoping to anoint the body of Jesus. We know that Mary Magdalene left while it was still dark (John 20:1). She and the other women had been asking, "Who will roll away the stone from the tomb for us?" (Mark 16:3). They came to the tomb when the sun was risen.
Mary Magdalene (and the other women - Mark 16:4) saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. (John 20:1). Then she (Mary Magdalene - not the other women) ran and came to Simon Peter, and John and said, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him".
While all this was happening, the other women had remained behind at the tomb. They did not come with Mary Magdalene to Peter and John. The Bible tells us what happened to these women at that point.
The other women entered the tomb (Mark 16:5), and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus (Luke 24:3). While they were wondering about this, two men stood by them in shining garments (Luke 24:4). These men were angels. At this point the event described in Matthew 28:5 took place. One of the men (angels) said, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell the disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you." (Matthew 28:5-7). The same basic instructions were given in Mark 16:6-7 and Luke 24:5-7. Putting these three accounts together, we have a consistent and more complete idea of the actual words spoken at that time.
These women (but not Mary Magdalene) then ran off from the tomb. Luke 24:9 tells us that they returned from the tomb. At that stage they were afraid and said nothing to anybody (Mark 16:8) but later they told the disciples, after the women met Jesus.
While they were heading towards the disciples, Peter and John were on their way to the tomb. (John 20:3). They were running fast. (John 20:4). John stopped and looked. Peter ran in. They did not see the angels. John saw and believed what Mary Magdalene had said. They saw the empty graveclothes, and then they went back to their own homes (John 20:10).
Mary Magdalene came back to the tomb, following Peter and John. She stood outside the tomb weeping, and looked into the tomb (vs John 20:11). The other women were still heading for the disciples. Mary Magdalene then sees the two angels and has a conversation with them (see John 20:12,13).
Mary turns around and sees Jesus, but does not recognize that it is Jesus, until Jesus says to her, "Mary" in a voice she recognized (John 20:14-16). Mary Magdalene clings to Jesus' feet, and Jesus tells her not to cling to Him, and that He is ascending to the Father. (John 20:14-17).
Mary Magdalene is thus the first person who saw the Lord Jesus after his resurrection. (Mark 16:9). She then leaves to tell the disciples (John 20:18). All these events with Mary Magdalene and Jesus could have happened fairly quickly.
Right after that, Jesus appears to the other women who are on the way back to the disciples to report what the angel said. We see this is Matthew 28:9. "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, 'Rejoice!' So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.". Jesus then instructs them to tell the disciples to go to Galilee to meet Him.
And so all of the women, including Mary Magdalene, end up reporting these things to the apostles (Luke 24:10) after they arrived back. Mary Magdalene saw Jesus first, then the other women saw Him. They all went back, not all at once, and told the disciples, but the disciples did not believe them at that time. Their reports back are summarized in one verse here.
After that Jesus appeared in another form to two men on the road to Emmaus. (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:13-33). It is clear that Jesus in His resurrection body had powers that were far greater than that of a normal mortal body. He could appear in different forms, instantly move to a desired location, and many other things.
These men went to tell the apostles again. As they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said, "Peace to you." (Luke 24:36). Luke reports that the disciples doubted when they saw Him. What they saw was obviously not because they were expecting to see it. Even after Jesus talked with them and they touched Him, "they still did not believe for joy." (Luke 24:41). This is true to human nature, and it certainly is not the sort of thing you write about the pillars of the church to impress people about their great faith.

Peter and John had seen the empty tomb and empty graveclothes. They heard the reports of the women, and then later of the men who were travelling on the road to Emmaus. They should have believed based on that evidence alone. But they did not. This is why later, at one of the times when Jesus did speak with the apostles face to face he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, "because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen." (Mark 16:14)

It took a number of such appearances before the disciples were fully convinced of the fact of the resurrection of Christ. Acts 1:3 tells us that Jesus presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

You can dream of finding any discrepancy but you cannot.

ChristianLady Thu 25 Jun 2009, 8:20 pm

First of all, saying that there are no non biblical accounts of the resurrection does not invalidate the resurrection. The New Testament documents, particularly the Gospels, were written by eyewitnesses or under the direction of eyewitnesses before the death of the apostles. Therefore there were plenty of people around who could have contested the post
crucifixion appearances of Christ. We must first understand that the Gospels are historical documents and they are reliable ones.

Second, it is not accurate to say that there are no extra biblical accounts of the resurrection of Christ. There are other historians who have written about this. However, the problem with most of them is that they were not contemporaries of Jesus. They were
written well after the fact. This, therefore, tends to invalidate the reliability of these extra biblical accounts according to the critics. But if the extra biblical accounts are not valid because they were written after the fact by non eyewitnesses, then that indirectly
supports the gospel accounts which were written by the eyewitnesses, by those who knew Jesus, and encountered him after his resurrection.

Third, how do you have witnesses to the resurrection? Even the disciples didn't see Him rise from the dead. Instead, they saw Him after He had risen, as was evidenced by the
wounds in His hands and side when He appeared to them (John 20:27). He appeared to those who most needed to see Him. They were the ones who had spent years with Him, watching Him do miracles, watching Him heal the sick, and teaching great wisdom and love. After Jesus died, their faith in Him had been shattered. It was necessary that Jesus appear to them in order to establish the truth of who He said He was; namely, God
in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33).

Fourth, Jesus would have to appear only to those who had seen Him before His crucifixion since appearing to someone who had never seen Him nor knew that He died, would prove nothing. This means that the ones whom Jesus would appear to were those who were
following Him in the area of Israel. This further means that at best, other records of His resurrection would have to be hearsay, written well after the fact, by those who did not know Jesus.

Fifth, we do have non-biblical accounts of the resurrection of Jesus.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
- There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

No sign would be given

Jesus typically would not demonstrate anything miraculous to those who refused to believe in Him. It is, therefore, consistent with Jesus' method to demonstrate Himself to those who were in need of Him and who did not mock Him and doubt Him. Like it or not, this is how He
operated. It would be logical to assume that He would deal in the same manner after His resurrection and only appear to those who knew Him and followed Him. For verification of Jesus' denial to those who doubted him, please note the following quotes.

"And the Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. 12And sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation." 13And leaving them, He again embarked and went away to the other side," (Mark 8:11-13).
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered Him, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign shall be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth," (Matt. 12:38-40).
"And the Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Him asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2But He answered and said to them, "When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3"And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4"An evil and
adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them, and went away," (Matt. 16:1).
"For the heart of this people has become dull, and with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart and return, and I should heal them," (Matt. 13:15).

Jesus plainly taught that He would not "perform" for those who denied Him. He did, however, do public miracles in order to validate who He was, God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 8:24; 8:58).
This great truth is a matter of faith and is not something proven with a calculator or a camera. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God which, in that culture, meant to claim equality with God (John 5:18). Jesus said that "Before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) a statement that infuriated the Jews who were familiar with God's self description to Moses in Exodus 3:14 when He said, "I AM that I AM. Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." It is a claim made real by evidence. The evidence was His miracles.

Conclusion
The real issue of the resurrection deals with its evidence. This evidence consists of the testimony of many people who stated that they had seen Jesus after His crucifixion and death. The same people who testified of the resurrection of Christ also gave up their social and economic security and put their lives on the line in order proclaim that Jesus had risen. Does it make any sense at all to say that they knew Jesus did not rise from the dead and had concocted an elaborate plan in order to deceive a great many people into believing that Jesus had risen? Why would they do that? Does it also make any sense that they would continue in this lie while being persecuted, ostracized from family and friends, beaten, imprisoned, and finally killed for what they believed? It makes more sense to believe that their actions were consistent with their teaching. In other words, they taught about
self-sacrifice, dedication to truth, love, peace, etc., and they based it all on the risen Lord. It was based upon the truth that they had seen.

CARM

Johntheservant Thu 25 Jun 2009, 8:29 pm

According to Dictionary.com, the word Contradiction means:

–noun
1. the act of contradicting; gainsaying or opposition.
2. assertion of the contrary or opposite; denial.
3. a statement or proposition that contradicts or denies another or itself and is logically incongruous.
4. direct opposition between things compared; inconsistency.
5. a contradictory act, fact, etc.

Does the resurrection in Gospels contradict each other. Like one says resurrection happened the other says no? There is no contradiction in the story of Resurrection of Jesus Christ and neither any discrepancy.

googleboy5 Thu 25 Jun 2009, 11:16 pm

see what Dr.Ehrman says
Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar and textual critic of early Christianity. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor and Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

ChristianLady Thu 25 Jun 2009, 11:58 pm

He is an Atheist and not a Christian so his remarks against Christianity are obvious just like we read your comments that are lies and deceptive. He gave up on being Christian because he could not understand that if God is love then why do people suffer. He talks of this in his book "God's Problem". We can also quote Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses".

lovingdove Fri 26 Jun 2009, 10:50 am

Koran is clear about Jesus' crucifixion and who deceived people.

That they said [in boast], We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God; But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Koran 4:157

From this sura comes the popular belief of Muslims that Allah cast the likeness of Jesus onto another man and that this man was the one crucified while Jesus was snatched into heaven. Muslims believe that the world was deceived into believing that it was Jesus that was crucified. The Chief culprit in this deception is Allah himself. Whoever invented this clever fable actually did a good job for Islam, but not a thorough one. He fell short of identifying the Jesus substitute, thereby leaving room for more controversies.

The repeated denial of Jesus death on the cross in Sura 4:157 not only exposes Allah's deception, but it also exposes his ignorance of prophetic tradition.

Who deceived who?
Even if I admit that Koran 4:157 is from God then, He deceived people to think in a lie? Why would God do that and what will He gain out of it? The Bible says that God is loving to whatever He has created but here we see Allah deceiving his own creation to doom.

googleboy5 Sun 28 Jun 2009, 9:53 pm

Jesus’ message was rejected by most of the Israelites as well as the Roman authorities.
Those who believed formed a small band of followers around him, known as the disciples.
The Israelites plotted and conspired against Jesus and formulated a plan to have him assassinated.
He was to be executed in public, in a particularly gruesome manner, well known in the Roman Empire: crucifixion.
"wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu
hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum"
means "But
they killed him not, nor crucified him,

only a likeness of that was shown to them."
wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am
the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have.
. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."(Luke 24:39-40)
What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That he was a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is I MYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh and bones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have to convince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone will acknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!
Jesus was telling his disciples, when he said: "Behold my HANDS and my FEET", that the body he wanted them to see, feel and touch was not a SPIRITUAL body, nor a
METAMORPHOSED1 body, nor a RESURRECTED body. Because a resurrected "body" becomes spiritualised!

we will talk about that later and i will prove to you that jesus never got crucified nor resurrected in a separate topic

**Waqar Daniel** Mon 29 Jun 2009, 7:11 pm

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have. . . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."(Luke 24:39-40)

Your explanation

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That he was a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is I MYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh and bones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have to convince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone will acknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!
Jesus was telling his disciples, when he said: "Behold my HANDS and my FEET", that the body he wanted them to see, feel and touch was not a SPIRITUAL body, nor a
METAMORPHOSED1 body, nor a RESURRECTED body. Because a resurrected "body" becomes spiritualised!

we will talk about that later and i will prove to you that jesus never got crucified nor resurrected in a separate topic

Now let us see as you are quoting Koranic point of view.

Koran 4:157
That they said [in boast], We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God; But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no [certain] knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

If Jesus was raised up alive as Koran claims then why did He come back to His disciples? This makes no sense. According to any dictionary, the word resurrect (verb) means to rise up from the dead. This means in bodily form and not in spirit.

Jesus after rising from the dead showed the disciples what He had promised. He asked them to feel his body and see his wounds. And when He had spoken this, He showed them His hands and feet (Luke 24:40)

Now the point "Lovingdove" picked up is very valid. If Allah made it to appear to everyone standing around the cross (disciples, Mary, Jews, High Priest and Roman soldiers) that Jesus is being crucified and made another person to be crucified in place of Jesus. Then there are two points:

Allah deceived everyone (disciples, Mary, Jews, High Priest, and Romans)
Allah crucified an innocent person in place of Jesus

If Allah did so then who is to be blamed for this wrong?

googleboy5 Tue 30 Jun 2009, 6:26 pm

Daniel wrote:
If Jesus was raised up alive as Koran claims then why did He come back to His disciples? This makes no sense

give me where did you get that from
who told you that after Allah raised up Jesus ,jesus come back to his disciples ??

Daniel wrote:
He asked them to feel his body and see his wounds

Why Jesus peace be upon him said "...A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have..." (Luke 24:39-40)

Daniel wrote:
Allah deceived everyone (disciples, Mary, Jews, High Priest, and Romans)

It is clear in the Quran that Allah only deceived
those who were plotting to kill Jesus. He did not deceive everyone.
In Surah Nisaa’, verses 156-159. As for the context of these verses,
Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their
slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed
Jesus son of Mary — the Messenger of Allah. Thereupon Allah, the
Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says, “And because of their saying (boasting), ‘We killed
Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ – but they killed
him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so.” Sura’ an-Nisaa’ 4:157

Daniel wrote:
Allah crucified an innocent person in place of Jesus

i told you that
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to:
A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)

let me ask you something
Why God crucified an innocent person (Jesus)?

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 01 Jul 2009, 9:08 am

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:give me where did you get that from who told you that after Allah raised up Jesus ,jesus come back to his disciples ??

I never referred to Koran, I was referring to Luke 24:39-40 as you based your argument on this verse

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I am
the same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and
bones, as you see me have.
. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."(Luke 24:39-40)
What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That he was a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is I MYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh and bones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have to convince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone will acknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!
Jesus was telling his disciples, when he said: "Behold my HANDS and my FEET", that the body he wanted them to see, feel and touch was not a SPIRITUAL body, nor a
METAMORPHOSED1 body, nor a RESURRECTED body. Because a resurrected "body" becomes spiritualised!

Show some brains while discussing.

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:Why Jesus peace be upon him said "...A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have..." (Luke 24:39-40)

At least just for once use your brains. Jesus said so because the disciples thought that they were seeing some spirit, so Jesus told them that He had risen back to life. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (Luke 24:37) Don't just argue for the sake of arguing, it makes you look foolish.

Who were present at the time of crucifixion? Only those who plotted to kill Jesus or many? Even if Allah made it to appear this, didn't he crucify an innocent person in place of Jesus? Didn't he deceive others and making them believe that Jesus was crucified? I call it a great deception.

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:let me ask you something Why God crucified an innocent person (Jesus)?

It shows that you are totally ignorant, I will not answer this for this is basics of Christianity and as you are debating this issue, you should know our faith. Read "Statement of Faith" for this reason.

You are just making up stories and have no answer. Instead of answering "did Allah deceive people?" and "Why did he kill an innocent person in Jesus' place?" you came up with a very childish question let me ask you something Why God crucified an innocent person (Jesus)?. You must know when you debate with others what we believe in. So much for your knowledge.

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 01 Jul 2009, 10:58 am

Look at how your koran was revealed?

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:

There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.”...

I have also maintained this that he was not a prophet and he did not know anything about the Bible.

blessed4ever Wed 01 Jul 2009, 5:45 pm

Romans 5:12
When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT)

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. (NLT)

Sin Separates Us from God

Isaiah 35:8
And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it. (NIV)

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. (NIV)

Sin's Punishment is Eternal Death
God's holiness and justice demand that sin and rebellion be punished. The only penalty or payment for sin is eternal death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)

Romans 5:21
So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NLT)

Atoning Sacrifice
Our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin.

1 Peter 1:18-19
For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. (NLT)

Hebrews 2:14-17
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (NIV)

Only Through Jesus Christ
Only through Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven, thus restoring our relationship with God and removing the separation caused by sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. (NIV)

The Messiah - Savior
The suffering and the glory of the coming Messiah was foretold in Isaiah chapters 52 and 53. God's people in the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah that would save them from their sin. Though he did not come in the form they expected, still their faith looking forward to his salvation saved them. Our faith, looking backward to his act of salvation, saves us. When we accept Jesus' payment for our sin, his perfect sacrifice washes away our sin and restores our right standing with God. God's mercy and grace provided a way for our salvation.

Romans 5:10
For since we were restored to friendship with God by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be delivered from eternal punishment by his life. (NLT)

In Summary, when we are "in Christ Jesus" we are covered by his blood through his sacrificial death, our sins are paid for, and we no longer have to die an eternal death. We receive eternal life though Jesus Christ. And this is why Jesus had to die.