Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

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Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sun 17 Mar 2013, 6:18 pm

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
I am a Christian and have the deepest respect for God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. I invite fellow Christians to participate in the questions for discussion. Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:


1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1.
Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.


2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.


A. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.



B. Likewise, in the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.


C. In fact, during the 1st century AD when Jesus was on earth, Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.



3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?


4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER the resurrected Jesus Christ returned to heaven?


5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it.


8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?


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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Wed 20 Mar 2013, 11:15 am

Trinity is a pagan concept

There are no trinities in pagan theology.  There are triads (three gods), but no trinities (one God in three persons).  Therefore, rejecting the concept of Trinity on these basis is inaccurate.

Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity...
To start with, you have used the word Bible "8" times in your post. Whereas, the word Bible is not used once in the Word of God. Therefore, I strongly believe that the logic you are giving for discussion is not valid.

Verses that support Trinity

  1. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)
  2. "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -'" (Genesis 3:22)
  3. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech." (Genesis 11:7)
  4. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. 7Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee." (Psalms 45:6-7)
  5. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!'" (Isaiah 6:Cool
  6. "Come near to Me [God], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (Isaiah 48:6)
  7. “I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord [YHWH]. 11“I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord." (Amos 4:10-11)
  8. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (Mathew 3:16-17)
  9. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (Mathew 28:19)
  10. "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons." (1 Cor 12:4-6)
  11. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (2 Cor 13:14)
  12. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6)
  13. "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure." (1 Peter 1:2)
  14.  "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." (Jude 20:21)


Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.
Satan has always used deception as a tool to mislead others. Same we find when satan misled Eve by using deception. He asked Eve, Now the Shining One was more clever than any animal of the field that the LORD God had made. It asked the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You are not to eat from any tree of the garden'?" (Genesis 3:1)

Satan assured Eve "You certainly will not die!" the Shining One told the woman. (Genesis 3:4) Satan knew what God had commanded Adam and he knew even then he was able to convince Eve in believing falsehood that led to their banishment.

Similarly, satan finds Adams and Eves in us. Satan uses falsehood making us believe that Krishna is Savior of the world, whereas he is not. Satan knows that Jesus is the only Savior of the world but to confuse and mislead others, satan uses the concept of salvation but through a demon or false god. So shall we say that the concept of salvation is wrong as it is part of faith of many pagan religions?
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).
I agree that the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible however, the concept is present in the Bible.

Hell
God has many a times in the Bible has shown us that Hell is real. He has many a times used hell fire as revenge. Therefore, we should not question whether hell is real or not? This question is a deception and license to sin without any consequences. Many are fooled just like Eve was fooled by satan.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Genesis 3:4-5)
Consider the following verses:

  1. “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.” (Numbers 26:10)
  2. “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” (Psalms 9:17) Carefully notice that "hell" here cannot merely mean "the grave" as some foolishly teach. For if "hell" only means the grave, then where do the righteous go? The Bible plainly teaches that the righteous and the wicked do NOT go to the same place. The wicked are turned into Hell; but the righteous unto life everlasting.
  3. “Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.” (Isaiah 5:14)


Hell Fire

"Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mathew 8:11-12)
If Hell Fire will burn them to ashes then who will be in agony (weeping and gnashing of teeth)?
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Mathew 13:41-42)
By rejecting hell fire we only justify our actions whereas, our LORD and Savior said "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mathew 25:41)
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)
I believe that the verses I have quoted speak for themselves. However, if you have more questions to ask, please do discuss.

Lastly, I would like to say that instead of asking questions about Hell or Hell Fire, we do the will of of to our Heavenly Father through our LORD and Savior. His will is that no one should end up in hell.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Therefore, we must pray for others that they may repent of their sins, recognize Jesus Christ so that they may be saved.

God bless you


Last edited by Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  ChristianLady on Fri 22 Mar 2013, 5:56 pm

Satan, the god of this world, WILL NOT always cause havoc. His doom is already foretold, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

How many times have I heard someone say, "A loving God wouldn't put His creatures in hell." Well I have news for you, friend, God doesn't put anyone in hell--their sins put them there. Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels

Blessings in Jesus name



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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  blessed4ever on Sat 23 Mar 2013, 2:17 pm

In Mark 9, notice that the Lord Jesus repeats three times about Hell, “where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.” Now, I personally feel that it is a great waste of time to quibble and argue with people about whether it is literal, real fire or not.

When we read in the Old Testament, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4), really the idea of the word is that it shall be separated. It is not non-existence or annihilation, but rather it is separation from God.
  • Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.
  • Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.
When Jesus said,“why has thou forsaken me?” that was the height of the suffering.


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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 14 Apr 2014, 2:43 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:[justify]Trinity is a pagan concept

There are no trinities in pagan theology.  There are triads (three gods), but no trinities (one God in three persons).  Therefore, rejecting the concept of Trinity on these basis is inaccurate.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAGAR DANIEL:

The words "trinity" and "triad" are synonyms that mean the same thing: three persons or three things that are related.  So your above rebuttal fails.


DEFINITION OF "TRINITY":

"The definition of a trinity is the state of being three, or a set of three."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/trinity



DEFINITION OF "TRIAD":
"1.  a group of three persons, things, ideas, etc.; trinity"
http://www.yourdictionary.com/triad


Notice that the definition of triad ends with the word "trinity," indicating they are synonyms.


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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 14 Apr 2014, 3:36 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Alter2Ego wrote:Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity...

To start with, you have used the word Bible "8" times in your post. Whereas, the word Bible is not used once in the Word of God. Therefore, I strongly believe that the logic you are giving for discussion is not valid.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I do not see the significance of that.  The word "bible" is not a religious teaching, it is a descriptive word that is used to describe the religious books of any religion--Christian or otherwise.  For instance, the Koran is the Muslim bible.  Notice definition #5 below.


DEFINITION OF "BIBLE":

noun
1.  the sacred book of Christianity; Old Testament and New Testament: some Roman 2.  Catholic versions also include all or part of the Apocrypha
3.  the Holy Scriptures of Judaism, identical with the Old Testament of Christianity
4.  a copy or particular edition of the Scriptures
5.  any collection or book of writings sacred to a religion: the Koran is the Muslim Bible
6.  any book regarded as authoritative or official

http://www.yourdictionary.com/bible


In fact, the word "bible" is even used to describe secular books dealing with bird watching.  Notice definition #4 below.  Also notice that definition #3 below again says the word "bible" refers to a collection of books that are sacred to any religion.


DEFINITION OF "BIBLE":

Bi·ble  [bahy-buhl]  Show IPA
noun
1. the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments.

2. Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament.

3. ( often lowercase ) the sacred writings of any religion.

4. ( lowercase ) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bible


So clearly, the word "bible" is not a religious teaching but is merely a descriptive word for any authorative book, religious or other wise.  Compare that to the words "Trinity" and "Godhead," both of which are part and parcel of a religious teaching.  


Considering that trinity is the central doctrine for most of the 41,000 denominations within Christendom, one would expect that both of those words would be prominently displayed in the book that is supposed to have taught the dogma, and one would expect that both words would be part of the original Hebrew and Greek writings.  They are not.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 14 Apr 2014, 3:43 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:Verses that support Trinity

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I will deal with the first four (4) of your trinity verses the next time I log on--assuming your website allows me to log back in.  

The reason why I have been gone from this website for all these months is because I could not log back on.  Every time I tried to log in, I would get a "Gadfly" virus that would take me to another website.  To prevent my computer from being invaded by the virus, I had to stop trying to log in.  


Today I decided to give it a try, and wallah!  I was able to log in.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  clark thompson on Mon 14 Apr 2014, 12:49 pm

In Luke when find the story of the rich man and Lazareth which teaches being separated from God and being in a place without hope.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Tue 15 Apr 2014, 8:40 pm


ALTER2EGO wrote:I do not see the significance of that.  The word "bible" is not a religious teaching, it is a descriptive word that is used to describe the religious books of any religion--Christian or otherwise.  For instance, the Koran is the Muslim bible.  Notice definition #5 below.
I do not know from where you got the idea that Quran is a Muslim Bible and the word Quran describes collection of religious writings of Islam.

You are totally misled here. Let me give you a short course on scripture of Islam. Quran is the name given to the muslim scripture by Allah and the word Quran is used 70 times in the Quran. The Quran contains 114 Surahs or chapters.

Quran is the Title of the Book given by Allah. Here are some verses that will prove that the definition you have picked from www.yourdictionary.com is incorrect and misleading

  1. By the wise Qur'an (2:2) Who is saying this? Allah
  2. Hath made known the Qur'an (55:2) Who has made through Quran? Allah
  3. Lo! this (Qur'an) is a conclusive word, (86:13)
  4. Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed. (17:78)
  5. Or add (a little) thereto - and chant the Qur'an in measure, (73:4)
  6. "And (it is) a Quran which I have divided into parts in order that you (Muhammad) may recite it to the people gradually, and I have revealed it by successive revelation." (17:106)
  7. And if the Quran is recited, you should listen to it and be silent, that you may receive mercy." (7:204)

Here I would suggest you to quote some reliable dictionaries. Even if you want to quote dictionaries, then kindly first of all compare the meaning of the dictionary with the theology. You answer is incorrect and therefore holds no significance to the topic.

I am going to use the same source and prove that you are totally misled. If Triad is synonym to Trinity then why not a single sentence example for Triad shows Trinity at Sample Sentences for Triads

Triad simply means Three in number and it does not come near to the meaning of Trinity that means threefold personality of on Divine Being. Kindly do not be eager to disapprove something without relevant knowledge.

You are more than welcome to login at your will at any time you like. No one has ever stopped you from posting or replying and certainly there are no viruses on the servers. I think you should check your PC/Laptop/Tablet for viruses. I will be waiting for your remarks on the verses I have quoted in my last post.

I would kindly reiterate my words for your logic and kindly ponder over my words
To start with, you have used the word Bible "8" times in your post. Whereas, the word Bible is not used once in the Word of God. Therefore, I strongly believe that the logic you are giving for discussion is not valid.
Your stance is illogical and lacks knowledge.

God bless you

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Thu 17 Apr 2014, 4:59 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:I do not see the significance of that.  The word "bible" is not a religious teaching, it is a descriptive word that is used to describe the religious books of any religion--Christian or otherwise.  For instance, the Koran is the Muslim bible.  Notice definition #5 below.
I do not know from where you got the idea that Quran is a Muslim Bible and the word Quran describes collection of religious writings of Islam.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I got the information that the Koran is the Muslim bible from a dictionary--from which I quoted in my last response.  Below is the definition again, along with the weblink that will take you to the source.  Focus on the words that are bolded in light blue.


DEFINITION OF "BIBLE":

noun
1.  the sacred book of Christianity; Old Testament and New Testament: some Roman 2.  Catholic versions also include all or part of the Apocrypha
3.  the Holy Scriptures of Judaism, identical with the Old Testament of Christianity
4.  a copy or particular edition of the Scriptures
5.  any collection or book of writings sacred to a religion: the Koran is the Muslim Bible
6.  any book regarded as authoritative or official

http://www.yourdictionary.com/bible


Notice the same definition from yet another dictionary, this time, Webster’s Dictionary.  I am also including the weblink so you can go and see it for yourself.  Take particular note of the words that are bolded in light blue within the quotation.


DEFINITION OF "BIBLE":

Bi´ble   Pronunciation: bī´b'l
n.
1. A book.

2. The Book by way of eminence, - that is, the book which is made up of the writings accepted by Christians as of divine origin and authority, whether such writings be in the original language, or translated; the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments; - sometimes in a restricted sense, the Old Testament; as, King James's Bible; Douay Bible; Luther's Bible. Also, the book which is made up of writings similarly accepted by the Jews; as, a rabbinical Bible.

3. A book containing the sacred writings belonging to any religion; as, the Koran is often called the Mohammedan Bible.

4. a book with an authoritative exposition of some topic, respected by many who are experts in the field.

(Source: Webster’s Dictionary) http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Bible

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Thu 17 Apr 2014, 5:25 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:I do not see the significance of that.  The word "bible" is not a religious teaching, it is a descriptive word that is used to describe the religious books of any religion--Christian or otherwise.  For instance, the Koran is the Muslim bible.  Notice definition #5 below.

Here I would suggest you to quote some reliable dictionaries. Even if you want to quote dictionaries, then kindly first of all compare the meaning of the dictionary with the theology. You answer is incorrect and therefore holds no significance to the topic.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I just did.  I quoted from Webster's Dictionary in my response above, and it says the same thing as the other dictionary that you are now suggesting is not a reliable dictionary.  Webster's Dictionary, at definition #4, says: "the Koran is often called the Mohammedan Bible".  Here is the weblink to Webster's Dictionary.
 http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Bible


Waqar Daniel wrote:Triad simply means Three in number and it does not come near to the meaning of Trinity that means threefold personality of on Divine Being. Kindly do not be eager to disapprove something without relevant knowledge.

As with all trinitarians, you are under the misguided impression that the word "trinity" applies only to Christendom's 3-in-1 god.  Notice below that Merriam-Webster's Dictionary gives three different definitions for "trinity".  The first definition is the definition used by Christendom.  But as you can see, the word "trinity" is not restricted to Christendom's 3-in-1 god.  At definition #2, it is applied not only to three closely related persons but to three closely related things.  

Definition of TRINITY

1:  the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

2: not capitalized :  a group of three closely related persons or things

3:  the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trinity

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 17 Apr 2014, 8:13 am

I do not care whether you got the idea from Webster's or Dexter's or any Tom, Dick or Harry. I have proved to you that you lack knowledge as the Quran and its verses contradict your dictionary-based knowledge.

I would advise you to read scriptures of different faiths and understand them in the light of their scriptures than commenting on them as if you are an expert.

Kindly do the following so that we can discuss the concept of Trinity further in detail.

  1. Prove that Trinity exited or exists in pagan faiths - Instead of giving meaning from dictionaries or sources after searching google, I would like you to quote verses from their scriptures in your support.
  2. Please answer the verses I quoted from the Bible in favor of Trinity.

Please explain this verse from Hebrews 1:1-4
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

  1. Who is the God who spoke to our ancestors through the prophets...Father, Son or Holy Spirit?
  2. ...but in last days He has spoken to us by His Son... Who is Son, Jesus?
  3. The Son is radiance of God's glory... Who is Son here and who is radiance of God's glory?
  4. He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Who is "He" and who is "Majesty" in heaven?

Waiting for your reply.

God bless you

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Fri 18 Apr 2014, 8:49 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote: I do not care whether you got the idea from Webster's or Dexter's or any Tom, Dick or Harry. I have proved to you that you lack knowledge as the Quran and its verses contradict your dictionary-based knowledge.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

In your previous reply, your complaint was that the dictionary I used was not "reliable" because I gave you the definitions of "bible" and "trinity" and "triad" from dictionary.com.


Waqar Daniel wrote:Here I would suggest you to quote some reliable dictionaries. Even if you want to quote dictionaries, then kindly first of all compare the meaning of the dictionary with the theology. You answer is incorrect and therefore holds no significance to the topic.


So in response, I gave you the definition of "bible" from a well-recognized dictionary. Webster's Dictionary confirms what dictionary.com already stated: namely, that the word "bible" refers to any authoritative book (including secular books), and it applies to the sacred writings of ANY religion.  In fact, Webster's Dictionary came right out and referred to the Islamic Koran as the the "Mohammedan Bible" (also known as the "Muslim Bible").


DEFINITION OF "BIBLE":

"3. A book containing the sacred writings belonging to any religion; as, the Koran is often called the Mohammedan Bible.

4. a book with an authoritative exposition of some topic, respected by many who are experts in the field."

(Source: Webster’s Dictionary) http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Bible


Similarly, I used Merriam-Webster's Dictionary to confirm what dictionary.com said: that the word "trinity" is not exclusive to Christendom's 3-in-1 god.


"Definition of TRINITY
1: the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

2:  not capitalized :  a group of three closely related persons or things

3:  the Sunday after Whitsunday observed as a feast in honor of the Trinity"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trinity 



Dictionaries serve a purpose:  they take everyday words and help us understand what we are saying and what we are reading.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Fri 18 Apr 2014, 8:54 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:Kindly do the following so that we can discuss the concept of Trinity further in detail.

  1. Prove that Trinity exited or exists in pagan faiths - Instead of giving meaning from dictionaries or sources after searching google, I would like you to quote verses from their scriptures in your support.
  2. Please answer the verses I quoted from the Bible in favor of Trinity.


ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I proved that already.  I gave three examples of pagan trinities in my opening post. You will see them listed as A, B, and C.


For your information, my reason for posting this thread is to enable those searching for Biblical truths to recognize the difference between Bible teachings and traditions of men.  This is a serious matter.  One's relationship with the true god, Jehovah, is involved.


Recall that Jesus Christ condemned the Jewish religious leaders during the 1st century AD because they put traditions of men above scripture.  The result was that their worship was rejected by his heavenly Father, Jehovah/YHWH.  In fact, Jesus Christ quoted from the book of Isaiah and reminded the 1st century AD Jews of what had previously been the condition of an earlier generation of apostate Jews who had also put traditions of men above scripture.



"{6} he must not honor his father at all. And so YOU HAVE MADE THE WORD OF GOD INVALID BECAUSE OF YOUR TRADITION.  {7} You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said, {8} "This people honor me with their lips, yet THEIR HEART IS FAR REMOVED FROM ME.  {9} It is IN VAIN that they keep worshipping me, because they teach COMMANDS OF MEN as doctrines." (Matthew 15:6-9)


I will now ask a rhetorical question for the benefit of all those who are genuinely interested in resolving the issue of trinity.



QUESTION #1 to EVERYONE:  If the Judeo-Christian God is not a trinity, should you expect Him to listen to your prayers, since you are praying to a non-existent, 3-in-1 god?



I will respond to the scriptures you posted at another time.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 19 Apr 2014, 7:08 pm

You are just making lame excuses for your irrelevant knowledge. What is more authentic - Webster's Dictionary or Quran itself? If Quran says that muslim scripture's title is Quran then how can you debate this by putting a definition given by a dictionary? Instead of putting lame excuses just admit you were totally wrong by quoting a dictionary instead of consulting Quran. Same mistakes you have made regarding defining Trinity and Triad. You should at least look into the concept of Trinity as per Bible and concept of Triad as per concept found in other faiths.

I am not amazed that people like who reject Trinity do not even understand Trinity because you try to find Trinity in faiths that believe in polytheism or modalism when these concepts are absolutely anathema to the doctrine of The Holy Trinity.

First of all let me explain Trinity.

Trinity
It is the Christian belief that there are Three Persons in One God. These Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are distinct from one another yet they share the same Divine Nature. Thus they are not three distinct gods, but one God; so God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ALL (according to the Holy Bible) bear the character and attributes of God.

  1. Did ever Egyptians of 2 BCE under the rule of Amun (1550-1070 BCE) considered Horus, Ra and Isis as one god? YES/NO
  2. Did Babylonians worship Ishtar, Sin and Shamash as Trinity gods? Give your answer with proofs.
  3. Again for gods of Palymra, did they worship them as one god or three different gods for different reasons?

Instead of making lame excuses as you all Oneness Pentecostals do, comment on the Bible verses I have quoted earlier and you said that you will comment on them.

Let me ask you a question, Babylonians believed in a creator, so did the Egyptians, and so do Hindus and so do Romans and so many other pagan faiths- Shall we reject our God as creator of the universe? Simple answer would be in Yes or No.

God bless you

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sun 20 Apr 2014, 5:29 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:You are just making lame excuses for your irrelevant knowledge. What is more authentic - Webster's Dictionary or Quran itself? If Quran says that muslim scripture's title is Quran then how can you debate this by putting a definition given by a dictionary? Instead of putting lame excuses just admit you were totally wrong by quoting a dictionary instead of consulting Quran. Same mistakes you have made regarding defining Trinity and Triad. You should at least look into the concept of Trinity as per Bible and concept of Triad as per concept found in other faiths.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

If your authority is the Muslim Quran/Koran, written by followers of a pagan named Muhammad, then you have my deepest sympathy.  Is it possible you do not realize that the Judeo-Christian God condemns every form of idolatry and that the Islamic Muhammad responsible for the Koran grew up worshipping hundreds of gods in the kabah?  And is it possible you do not realize that the Quran/Koran was written more than 600 years after the last book of the Judeo-Christian Bible and that the Quran/Koran plagiarized the Hebrew Scriptures, while you claim the Koran is "authentic"?  But I am the one with “irrelevant knowledge,” you say?


I gave you the definition of "bible" from two well recognized dictionaries, namely Webster's Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, in addition to dictionary.com, and they all agree that the word "bible" is simply the descriptive word for the sacred books of ANY religion.  Not only that, according to all of the dictionaries that I quoted, the word “bible” is the descriptive word for ANY secular authoritative source such as the "birdwatcher's bible."



Waqar Daniel wrote:I am not amazed that people like who reject Trinity do not even understand Trinity because you try to find Trinity in faiths that believe in polytheism or modalism when these concepts are absolutely anathema to the doctrine of The Holy Trinity.

First of all let me explain Trinity.

Trinity
It is the Christian belief that there are Three Persons in One God. These Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are distinct from one another yet they share the same Divine Nature. Thus they are not three distinct gods, but one God; so God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ALL (according to the Holy Bible) bear the character and attributes of God.

I am well familiar with the meaning of Christendom's trinity.  But as I already stated, neither the words "trinity" nor "Godhead" were in the original Hebrew and Greek writings (the Old Testament and the New Testament).  But that is the least of your problems.  There is not one single verse of scripture in the entire 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible that indicate there are three persons (Father, Son and holy ghost/holy spirit) that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a "Godhead."

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sun 20 Apr 2014, 5:44 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:

  1. Did ever Egyptians of 2 BCE under the rule of Amun (1550-1070 BCE) considered Horus, Ra and Isis as one god? YES/NO
  2. Did Babylonians worship Ishtar, Sin and Shamash as Trinity gods? Give your answer with proofs.
  3. Again for gods of Palymra, did they worship them as one god or three different gods for different reasons?


ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

None of the pagan trinities are like one another.  They all have sets of three gods that are related in various ways, but none of the three sets of gods perform the same functions in any of the pagan trinities.  So since none of the pagan trinities are alike, why in the world would you expect Christendom's trinity of three gods combined into one to be like any of those in paganism?  


The apostates who formalized the trinity dogma in Christendom borrowed an old idea and decided that their three gods would be combined into one and would be co-equal and co-eternal.  The problem for Trinitarians within Christendom is that there are no scriptures in God’s inspired word that presents three gods that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a single god.  Not one verse.



Waqar Daniel wrote:Let me ask you a question, Babylonians believed in a creator, so did the Egyptians, and so do Hindus and so do Romans and so many other pagan faiths- Shall we reject our God as creator of the universe? Simple answer would be in Yes or No.

God bless you

The Babylonians and Egyptians and Hindus and Romans were all pagans who were polytheistic (worship of many gods).  None of them worshiped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Instead, they worshipped non-existent gods that they dreamed up. So frankly, I do not know what point you are attempting to make by comparing non-existent, pagan gods with the true God, Jehovah.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sun 20 Apr 2014, 10:34 pm

ALTER2EGO wrote:If your authority is the Muslim Quran/Koran, written by followers of a pagan named Muhammad, then you have my deepest sympathy.  Is it possible you do not realize that the Judeo-Christian God condemns every form of idolatry and that the Islamic Muhammad responsible for the Koran grew up worshipping hundreds of gods in the kabah?  And is it possible you do not realize that the Quran/Koran was written more than 600 years after the last book of the Judeo-Christian Bible and that the Quran/Koran plagiarized the Hebrew Scriptures, while you claim the Koran is "authentic"?  But I am the one with “irrelevant knowledge,” you say?
This is really funny. I just gave you appropriate information regarding Quran and you come up with another excuse. I feel sorry for you that you are trying to mislead others. Kindly quote Hebrew scriptures that were plagrized as a part of Quran by giving proper references.

Did I claim Quran to be authentic while comparing Quran with Bible or by comparing Quran with Webster's Dictionary?
ALTER2EGO wrote:I gave you the definition of "bible" from two well recognized dictionaries, namely Webster's Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, in addition to dictionary.com, and they all agree that the word "bible" is simply the descriptive word for the sacred books of ANY religion.  Not only that, according to all of the dictionaries that I quoted, the word “bible” is the descriptive word for ANY secular authoritative source such as the "birdwatcher's bible."
Well I can only laugh at your dictionaries and your logic. This means all pagan books are sacred then. To me only Bible is sacred and no other scripture of any religion.  
ALTER2EGO wrote:None of the pagan trinities are like one another.  They all have sets of three gods that are related in various ways, but none of the three sets of gods perform the same functions in any of the pagan trinities.  So since none of the pagan trinities are alike, why in the world would you expect Christendom's trinity of three gods combined into one to be like any of those in paganism?  
You will never find the concept of Trinity in any pagan religion and your answer proves the same.
ALTER2EGO wrote:The Babylonians and Egyptians and Hindus and Romans were all pagans who were polytheistic (worship of many gods).  None of them worshiped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Instead, they worshipped non-existent gods that they dreamed up. So frankly, I do not know what point you are attempting to make by comparing non-existent, pagan gods with the true God, Jehovah.
If they are all made up gods as you have said, then why do you compare Biblical concepts and Godhead as stated in the Bible with pagan faiths?
ALTER2EGO wrote:I am well familiar with the meaning of Christendom's trinity.  But as I already stated, neither the words "trinity" nor "Godhead" were in the original Hebrew and Greek writings (the Old Testament and the New Testament).  But that is the least of your problems.  There is not one single verse of scripture in the entire 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible that indicate there are three persons (Father, Son and holy ghost/holy spirit) that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a "Godhead."
I quoted you many verses but you never commented on them.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23)

  1. Whom did Jesus pray to?
  2. Who the world should believe that who sent Jesus?
  3. How will we be loved and by whom?


Advice
Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.’ (Jeremiah 33:3)
I would also like to request you to pray to God for answers instead of searching internet and getting misled through improper information and also mislead others. The choice is yours but you can give a go because this a God's promise as recorded in the Bible.

I think you should first finish your discussions that you started at
  1. Bibles, Wheelsand Brains in August 2012;

  2. Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?


God bless you.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 21 Apr 2014, 7:59 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:If your authority is the Muslim Quran/Koran, written by followers of a pagan named Muhammad, then you have my deepest sympathy.  Is it possible you do not realize that the Judeo-Christian God condemns every form of idolatry and that the Islamic Muhammad responsible for the Koran grew up worshipping hundreds of gods in the kabah?  And is it possible you do not realize that the Quran/Koran was written more than 600 years after the last book of the Judeo-Christian Bible and that the Quran/Koran plagiarized the Hebrew Scriptures, while you claim the Koran is "authentic"?  But I am the one with “irrelevant knowledge,” you say?

This is really funny. I just gave you appropriate information regarding Quran and you come up with another excuse. I feel sorry for you that you are trying to mislead others. Kindly quote Hebrew scriptures that were plagrized as a part of Quran by giving proper references.


ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

Your idea of "appropriate information" is to ignore definitions from well-known dictionaries so that you can argue that the word "bible" applies only to the Judeo-Christian Bible and so that you can use the argument that since the word "bible" is not in the Judeo-Christian Bible, there is therefore no need for the words "trinity" and "Godhead" to be in the Bible.  


In reality, the word "bible" is applied to any authoritative book, religious or otherwise, including the birdwatchers bible.  So clearly, the word "bible" is not a religious teaching or even a religious word.  Compare the word "bible" to the words "Trinity" and "Godhead."

The word "bible" = a descriptive word for a collection of writings considered sacred to any religion OR any authoritative book, including secular books.


The word "Trinity" = religious teaching in Christendom of a 3-in-1 god.


The word "Godhead" = connected to the religious teaching of Christendom's 3-in-1 god.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 21 Apr 2014, 8:21 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:I gave you the definition of "bible" from two well recognized dictionaries, namely Webster's Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, in addition to dictionary.com, and they all agree that the word "bible" is simply the descriptive word for the sacred books of ANY religion.  Not only that, according to all of the dictionaries that I quoted, the word “bible” is the descriptive word for ANY secular authoritative source such as the "birdwatcher's bible."

Well I can only laugh at your dictionaries and your logic. This means all pagan books are sacred then. To me only Bible is sacred and no other scripture of any religion.
 

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

But this is not about you.  This is about the definition of the word "bible."  Definitions do not change their meaning because a certain group of people do not consider other people’s religious writings to be sacred.  So long as the people of the particular religion consider their writings to be sacred, that is when the writings meet the definition of "bible".  




Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:The Babylonians and Egyptians and Hindus and Romans were all pagans who were polytheistic (worship of many gods).  None of them worshiped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Instead, they worshipped non-existent gods that they dreamed up. So frankly, I do not know what point you are attempting to make by comparing non-existent, pagan gods with the true God, Jehovah.

If they are all made up gods as you have said, then why do you compare Biblical concepts and Godhead as stated in the Bible with pagan faiths?

There is no Biblical concepts of Trinity in the Bible.  Christendom borrowed the idea of trinity from paganism.  The record of history shows that the idea of a 3-in-1 god was started by the "Christianized" Romans who came out of paganism.  It was the "Christianized" Romans that made "Trinity" official Church teaching in 4th century C.E.—more than 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene.  

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 21 Apr 2014, 8:57 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:I am well familiar with the meaning of Christendom's trinity.  But as I already stated, neither the words "trinity" nor "Godhead" were in the original Hebrew and Greek writings (the Old Testament and the New Testament).  But that is the least of your problems.  There is not one single verse of scripture in the entire 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible that indicate there are three persons (Father, Son and holy ghost/holy spirit) that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a "Godhead."

I quoted you many verses but you never commented on them.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I have not had a chance to comment on your verses because you are too busy arguing about the definition of "bible," along with your denials about the existence of pagan trinities.  And I keep responding to your denials.  Since it is obvious you will keep denying reality, I will move on to your supposed "trinity" verses in my future responses.



Waqar Daniel wrote:I think you should first finish your discussions that you started at

  1. Bibles, Wheelsand Brains in August 2012;
  2. Where Did The Trinity Teaching Come From?


God bless you.

FYI:  Bibles, Wheels and Brains is a religion debate forum run by a married couple,  Richard Amiel McGough and his wife Rose, both or whom are atheists.  Their sole objective is to bash the Judeo-Christian Bible.  That is the reason why I abandoned their website more than a year ago. Below is a typical example of Rose doing her usual bashing of Jehovah and the Bible.

Rose wrote:Your degrading words only show your ignorance when it comes to sexism in the Bible. I have presented and excellent case for my claim of Male bias in the Bible but you refuse to accept it because you are unwilling to see that the misogynistic biblegod you believe in was made up by Bronze Age men. Over and over again I have told you that the reason we know that the biblegod is made up by men is because this masculine tribal god perfectly matches the mentality of the men who lived in that period of time and wrote the Scriptures.

Rose
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3077-Sexism-in-the-Bible&p=44155#post44155


Below is an example of Richard Amiel McGough doing his bashing of the Bible, at the same time that he was arguing with me that God is a trinity. So while he pretends on the one hand that he believes in the trinity, he routinely bashed the Bible when it suited him.

Richard Amiel McGough wrote:That's a ridiculous assertion. The Bible is filled with contradictions. For example, it is impossible to harmonize the accounts of the death and resurrection of Christ or the birth narratives. The proof is obvious - there are whole books written by Christian apologists to explain away the contradictions. Those books wouldn't be necessary if there were not contradictions. It's fine if you want to say there are no "real" contradictions, but then you would have to prove that fact, and it's something that simply cannot be done.


There you go again. Repeating the same ridiculous assertion without being able to prove even ONE prophecy! What a pathetic joke. You make yourself look absurd when you say such things.

And you continue to make basic errors in logic. The fact that CHRISTIANS believe Isaiah 53:10 was a prophecy fulfilled by Christ does not prove it really is. Why do you repeat such obvious errors?


I mentioned the Quran to help open your eyes to reality. Muslims make exactly the same kind of arguments for the Quran that you make for the Bible. You need to understand this or you will remain deluded. I was just trying to help free you from your delusion.
http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?3325-Bible-Teachings-or-Traditions-of-Men&p=48733#post48733

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Tue 22 Apr 2014, 6:06 pm

ALTER2EGO wrote:Your idea of "appropriate information" is to ignore definitions from well-known dictionaries so that you can argue that the word "bible" applies only to the Judeo-Christian Bible and so that you can use the argument that since the word "bible" is not in the Judeo-Christian Bible, there is therefore no need for the words "trinity" and "Godhead" to be in the Bible.
Your assumption and a pack of lies. I only commented on your inferior dictionary-based knowledge when you called Quran as Bible of Mohammed. I have proved to you that your knowledge is inferior and you only quote what suits you. Check definition of Bible at the following online dictionaries and you will see no where these dictionaries claim Quran to be Bible of Mohammed. I have yet to find a Quran titled Mohammed's Bible. If you find one kindly send me the image so that I can correct myself.

  1. Oxford Dictionary
  2. Cambridge Online Dictionaries
  3. Yahoo Education
  4. Word Reference
  5. Collins Dictionary
  6. Vocabulary.Com
  7. Macmillan Dictionary
  8. Merriam-Webster Dictionary
  9. Wordnik
  10. Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia
  11. Online Etymology Dictionary
  12. Mnemonic Dictionary

The point here is that only Webster's Dictionary call Quran as Mohammed's Bible yet no one asked Mohammed. Mohammed says it is Quran and not Bible. If we strictly stick to the definition of Biblia then Quran does not stand on that definition because it is not a collection of books like Bible.

Now coming to your logic of Birdswatcher's Bible. If you can call Quran Bible then any book or collection of books can be called Bible. I wonder what are you going to call Hindu scripture?

  • Bible of Veda Vesya - OR
  • Bible of Krishna - OR
  • Bible of Bhigru and Angirasa - OR
  • Bible of Rishis - OR
  • Bible of  Kauśika - OR
  • Bible of Vasiṣṭha - OR
  • Bible of Kaśyapa and so on

Do enlighten us what your dictionary-based knowledge has to say.




Last edited by Waqar Daniel on Tue 22 Apr 2014, 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Tue 22 Apr 2014, 6:12 pm

ALTER2EGO wrote:FYI:  Bibles, Wheels and Brains is a religion debate forum run by a married couple,  Richard Amiel McGough and his wife Rose, both or whom are atheists.  Their sole objective is to bash the Judeo-Christian Bible.  That is the reason why I abandoned their website more than a year ago.
Many athiests and people belonging to cults have written on this website, but neither any member nor I have run away from discussion(s) for we all know what we are talking about.

Oneness believers are too cocky in their inferior knowledge and then they land into trouble when they cannot answer the questions so they just run away.

However, let's cut short our discussion on other matters. You asked for verses and I have quoted you many - so now it will be kind of you to comment on those verses to prove your point.

God bless you



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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Thu 24 Apr 2014, 5:39 pm

FACT
How can the concept of Trinity be borrowed from pagan faiths as it was present long before pagan faiths in the Bible. I am giving you three verses from the Book of Genesis as proof.

  1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (Genesis 1:1-2)
  2. Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...(Genesis 1:26)
  3. And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil...(Genesis 3:22)

Was there any pagan faith worshipping Triad gods / Trinity before these events???

God bless you


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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Fri 25 Apr 2014, 3:46 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
ALTER2EGO wrote:Your idea of "appropriate information" is to ignore definitions from well-known dictionaries so that you can argue that the word "bible" applies only to the Judeo-Christian Bible and so that you can use the argument that since the word "bible" is not in the Judeo-Christian Bible, there is therefore no need for the words "trinity" and "Godhead" to be in the Bible.
Your assumption and a pack of lies. I only commented on your inferior dictionary-based knowledge when you called Quran as Bible of Mohammed. I have proved to you that your knowledge is inferior and you only quote what suits you. Check definition of Bible at the following online dictionaries and you will see no where these dictionaries claim Quran to be Bible of Mohammed. I have yet to find a Quran titled Mohammed's Bible. If you find one kindly send me the image so that I can correct myself.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL

You have not proven anything to anyone thus far, aside from the following:

1.  You seem to enjoy calling opponents liars.

2.  You are convinced that if you keep arguing against the reality that the word "bible" is merely a descriptive word that is applied to the sacred writings of any religion and any secular authoritative book, then by some miracle, your denials will change reality



Waqar Daniel wrote:Your assumption and a pack of lies. I only commented on your inferior dictionary-based knowledge when you called Quran as Bible of Mohammed. I have proved to you that your knowledge is inferior and you only quote what suits you. Check definition of Bible at the following online dictionaries and you will see no where these dictionaries claim Quran to be Bible of Mohammed. I have yet to find a Quran titled Mohammed's Bible. If you find one kindly send me the image so that I can correct myself.

You were given the definition from Webster's Dictionary that the word "bible" is simply a descriptive word for the sacred books of ANY religion and for any secular authoritative book such as the "birdwatcher's bible."  There is no requirement for the words "Mohammedan Bible" to appear on the cover of the Quran anymore than the word "bible" needs to appear inside the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible.  Why not?  Because the word "bible" simply describes what the book is.  The book happens to be the sacred writings of the particular religion.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 25 Apr 2014, 5:37 pm

Are you a Jehovah's Witness? Secondly I asked you to comment on the verses I quoted but you are trying to prove your dictionay-based knowledge. Your kind of pseudo Google search scholars have nothing but to spread dissension and mislead others.

If you want to discuss then kindly comment on the verses I have quoted.

God bless you

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Fri 25 Apr 2014, 7:21 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:The point here is that only Webster's Dictionary call Quran as Mohammed's Bible yet no one asked Mohammed. Mohammed says it is Quran and not Bible. If we strictly stick to the definition of Biblia then Quran does not stand on that definition because it is not a collection of books like Bible.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL

The point is that word “bible” is not defined as “a collection of books.”  It is defined as “the sacred writings of any religion.”  And the point is that Webster’s Dictionary used the Quran as an example of the sacred writings to the religion of Islam.
 



Waqar Daniel wrote:Now coming to your logic of Birdswatcher's Bible. If you can call Quran Bible then any book or collection of books can be called Bible. I wonder what are you going to call Hindu scripture?

My logic?  I got the definition of “bible” from the dictionaries.  The "birdwatcher's bible" is not a definition, it is an example that was presented as part of the secular definition.  And the secular definition says that "bible" is the description of any secular writing that is considered authoritative to a particular field.


In fact, your own sources agree with Webster’s Dictionary that the word “bible” is applied to any authoritative writings that are SECULAR aka not religious.  Notice a few examples below from your own sources.






Oxford Dictionary at definition 1.4  defines “bible” as “a secular book that is regarded as authoritative” it then gives the example of the “filmgoers bible”

“1.4  (bible) • informal A book regarded as authoritative in a particular sphere:a brand-new edition of this filmgoers' bible
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Bible?q=bible



Cambridge Dictionary defines the word “bible” at the third definition as follows:

“a book or magazine that gives important information and advice about a particular subject:  'Vogue' was regarded as the fashion student's bible.”
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/learner-english/bible


Definition #2 at education.yahoo.com gives the secular/non-religious definition of “bible” as follows:

“2.  often bible A book considered authoritative in its field: the bible of French cooking.
https://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Bible



Collins Dictionary at definition #4 gives the secular/non-religious meaning of “bible” as follows:

“4.  (usually not capital) a book regarded as authoritative   ⇒ the angler's bible"
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bible



Merriam-Webster at definition #4 gives the secular meaning of “bible” as follows:

“4:  a publication that is preeminent especially in authoritativeness or wide readership <the fisherman's bible><the bible of the entertainment industry>”
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bible


Notice that the sources above indicate that the writing must be considered AUTHORITATIVE in the secular field of interest.  I bolded the word in light blue to bring it to the attention of those reading this thread.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Fri 25 Apr 2014, 7:44 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:Now coming to your logic of Birdswatcher's Bible. If you can call Quran Bible then any book or collection of books can be called Bible. I wonder what are you going to call Hindu scripture?

  • Bible of Veda Vesya - OR
  • Bible of Krishna - OR
  • Bible of Bhigru and Angirasa - OR
  • Bible of Rishis - OR
  • Bible of  Kauśika - OR
  • Bible of Vasiṣṭha - OR
  • Bible of Kaśyapa and so on

Do enlighten us what your dictionary-based knowledge has to say.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL

By definition, all of the above examples are the sacred writings to those religions; therefore, they are all defined as "bibles."  Your own sources confirm this.  Notice a few examples below.





Oxford Dictionary at definition 1.5 defines the word “bible” as follows:

“The scriptures of any religion.”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/Bible



Cambridge Dictionary at the second definition defines the word “bible” as follows:

“A Bible is also the holy writings of any religion.”
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/bible?q=bible



Definition 1 (d) at education.yahoo.com gives the definition of “bible” as follows:

“d.  A book or collection of writings constituting the sacred text of a religion.”
https://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Bible



Collins Dictionary at definition #3 defines “bible” as follows:

“3.  (often not capital) any book containing the sacred writings of a religion
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/bible




Waqar Daniel wrote:Do enlighten us what your dictionary-based knowledge has to say.

If you want to continue arguing about definitions while you post sarcastic remarks to me and refer to me as a liar, you will soon be talking to yourself.  I do not have time to waste arguing definitions with someone who is in denial, particularly someone who makes a point of attacking my character.  I came here to debate scripture and would like to move on to your supposed "trinity" verses.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Fri 25 Apr 2014, 8:27 pm

You are commenting on my previous posts. I have requested you to comment on the verses I quoted but till now you are avoiding to comment.

Secondly I asked you if you belong to the cult of Jehovah Witness but you never answered. Are you ashamed to admit it?

If you consider pagan scriptures sacred then it is your dictionaty-based will. I never call them sacred.

Kindly comment on the verses that I have quoted so that we can discuss your questions. Remember you joined Christian Talk posted on your will and no one invited you. If you ridicule my faith and put unfound assumed allegations then I will not tolerate this behavior of yours.

God bless you

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sat 26 Apr 2014, 1:16 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:You are commenting on my previous posts. I have requested you to comment on the verses I quoted but till now you are avoiding to comment.

Secondly I asked you if you belong to the cult of Jehovah Witness but you never answered. Are you ashamed to admit it?
ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL

By definition, all religions are cults.


"Definition of CULT
1 : formal religious veneration: worship

2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator

5 (a) : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

(b) : the object of such devotion

(c) : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult


As you can see by definitions 1 and 2 and 3 above, ANY type of religion is considered a cult whether "formal" on the one end or "unorthodox" at the opposite extreme. So where does that leave you? If you are in a religion, go figure.



Waqar Daniel wrote:Kindly comment on the verses that I have quoted so that we can discuss your questions. Remember you joined Christian Talk posted on your will and no one invited you. If you ridicule my faith and put unfound assumed allegations then I will not tolerate this behavior of yours.

God bless you

Really?  I am ridiculing your faith simply because I put up a thread dealing with trinity?  I just quoted you referring to me as belonging to a cult--because you figured it would serve as an insult.  (As it turns out, all religions are cults, but you did not know that when you accused me of belonging to a cult.)  Not only that, you have repeatedly referred to me as a liar.

Now you are pulling the "rank" card and threatening me and telling me you "will not tolerate this behavior" of mine.



I believe it is time I moved on.




Not sure that I will return.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 26 Apr 2014, 2:07 pm

WOW! What a dictionary-based knowledge. Kindly tell us if you belong to the cult of Jehovah's Witness. Again my request is to comment on verses I have quoted.

Remember, I never threaten, I do what I say. Yes you have ridiculed Christianity all over internet and when you are rendered speechless you run away from that discussion.

Read your discussions on other forums where people have ridiculed the character of Jesus Christ just because of you.

I don't care if you want to stay or leave that is your will.

God bless you.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  ChristianLady on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:57 pm

ALTER2EGO you never disproved the verses of the Bible where Trinity is clearly shown in the scriptures. Hope to see you around. Blessings

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sun 21 Sep 2014, 3:46 am

ChristianLady wrote:ALTER2EGO you never disproved the verses of the Bible where Trinity is clearly shown in the scriptures. Hope to see you around. Blessings

There are no scriptures in the Bible that even suggest a 3-in-1 god in which there are three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal.  So your above claim (bolded in light blue) that trinity is "clearly shown in the scriptures" is simply you telling me and everybody else your personal opinion.

In any event, since you are making the claim, be sure and present your first four (4) verses of supposed "trinity" scriptures, at which point, I will direct you to the context.  I will only deal with four sets of "trinity" scriptures at a time.  Once we have discussed the context of the first four set of scriptures, we can then move on to another four.

FYI:  It is the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters) that enables a reader to get the correct understanding of written words.  Unfortunately, the routine of Trinitarians is to cherry-pick a few words from an entire chapter and ignore everything else that is part of the context.


Another thing: I have no tolerance for abusive behavior, particularly when the offender is a moderator/administrator who is supposed to be setting a good example for regular members to follow.  I have abandoned many websites because of the childish behavior of moderators/administrators.  Adults should behave as adults and show a level of respect towards one another, even when they do not agree on what the Bible actually teaches.  There is such a thing as disagreeing without being disagreeable.

If the Administrator/Moderator shows up flamebaiting me with name-calling, as happened the last time I was here, I will disappear again.  


The next time I disappear, it will be for good.  I will signal it by removing my avatar.  



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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Wed 08 Oct 2014, 4:59 pm

Welcome back! I hope this time you will not quote us dictionaries. To start with, kindly explain the meaning of Elohim and whether it is singular or plural?

Waiting for your reply and one more thing if you have so much knowledge - why do you run away or want to run away?

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 12:19 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Welcome back! I hope this time you will not quote us dictionaries. To start with, kindly explain the meaning of Elohim and whether it is singular or plural?

Waiting for your reply and one more thing if you have so much knowledge - why do you run away or want to run away?

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

I will quote from dictionaries whenever it is necessary to prove to various ones that certain words have specific meanings.  You previously claimed that the word "Bible" is restricted to the Judeo-Christian Bible alone.  As I proved by means of various dictionaries, the word "bible" is applied to any book that is considered to be authoritative by any group of people--religious books or otherwise--including the "birdwatchers bible."

You also made the fallacious claim that the words triad and trinity have different meanings. In reality, those two words are synonyms with the exact same meaning. They both mean "three of anything".


Waqar Daniel wrote:Waiting for your reply and one more thing if you have so much knowledge - why do you run away or want to run away?

You can twist it in an attempt to make me seem like a coward, as you are doing above.  I will not stay on any website where the moderator/administrator shows up playing the role of flamebaiter.  Once a moderator/administrator does that, it becomes an open invitation for regular members to do the same thing.  I speak from experience. I have been at dozens of websites across the internet and have seen what happens when the moderators/administrators take the lead in that type of behavior.  

Since there are dozens of debate websites across the internet. I can afford to pick and choose.


Last edited by Alter2Ego on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 1:28 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 12:25 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Welcome back! I hope this time you will not quote us dictionaries. To start with, kindly explain the meaning of Elohim and whether it is singular or plural?

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

The Hebrew word Elohim refers to a singular god as well as plural gods.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 1:06 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Alter2Ego wrote:Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity...
Verses that support Trinity

  1. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)
  2. "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -'" (Genesis 3:22)
  3. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech." (Genesis 11:7)
  4. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. 7Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee." (Psalms 45:6-7)
  5. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!'" (Isaiah 6:Cool
  6. "Come near to Me [God], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret,
    From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (Isaiah 48:6)
  7. “I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord [YHWH]. 11“I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord." (Amos 4:10-11)
  8. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (Mathew 3:16-17)
  9. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (Mathew 28:19)
  10. "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons." (1 Cor 12:4-6)
  11. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (2 Cor 13:14)
  12. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6)
  13. "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure." (1 Peter 1:2)
  14.  "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." (Jude 20:21)


I agree that the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible however, the concept is present in the Bible.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL

None of the above verses that you presented at Post 2 provide any support for Christendom's Trinity.  I will prove this by directing your attention to the context of the scriptures you presented (surrounding words, verses, and chapters) or by directing you to Scriptures in other parts of the Bible.  I will begin addressing your "Trinity" verses in my very next post.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 1:25 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:[*]"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

Notice that I bolded in light blue the words Us and Our in the quotation you presented from Genesis 1:26.  Whenever the pronouns "us" and "our" are used in the Old Testament and Jehovah is part of the conversation, it means Almighty God was speaking to at least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels.

Trinitarians use the "us" and "our" pronouns in the Old Testament to claim that Almighty God was referring to himself in the plural.  The reality is that he was talking to somebody else.  Or is it possible you do not realize there were already millions angels in existence BEFORE humans were created?


In other words, at Genesis 1:26 when Jehovah said "let us make man in our image," he was specifically talking to the angel identified as the pre-human Jesus Christ.  We know this is the case, because Colossians 1:15-17 tells us that God created Jesus Christ as the "firstborn of all creation," and that Jehovah created all other things through or by means of the pre-human Jesus.
 

"{15} He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16} because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him [Jesus] all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17 -- New World Translation)


Some of the Trinitarian Bibles have translated the above verses in such a way as to make it appear that Jesus was actually the creator of everything.  But they can never get around verse 15 which clearly places the pre-human Jesus among "all creation."



I will deal with the second of your "Trinity" verses the next time I log in.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 7:03 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:You can twist it in an attempt to make me seem like a coward, as you are doing above.  I will not stay on any website where the moderator/administrator shows up playing the role of flamebaiter.  Once a moderator/administrator does that, it becomes an open invitation for regular members to do the same thing.  I speak from experience. I have been at dozens of websites across the internet and have seen what happens when the moderators/administrators take the lead in that type of behavior.   Since there are dozens of debate websites across the internet. I can afford to pick and choose.
I never proved you to be a coward rather I proved you to be a Liar just like Charles T Russell is proved liar. You proved my point by stating same thing again and again. If you are so busy on other websites then finish those discussions and then come and debate with me.
Alter2Ego wrote:Notice that I bolded in light blue the words Us and Our in the quotation you presented from Genesis 1:26.  Whenever the pronouns "us" and "our" are used in the Old Testament and Jehovah is part of the conversation, it means Almighty God was speaking to at least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)[/b]

Was God speaking to Angels?

  1. Let us make man... If God was conversing with angels as you have said, then my question is - Can Angels create? Give a proof from the Bible;
  2. Isaiah 14 says, "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning...For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'"

    If Lucifer and the other angels who rebelled against God were made in the image and likeness of God, then is it in the nature of God to mislead others?
  3. According to Bible, Angels are not created in the image of God, only man is created in the image and likeness of God;
  4.  If angels are included in "Let US make", then angels AND God are equally our creator.
  5. "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!" (Isaiah 6:3). If God conversed with angels in Genesis 1:26 then why did in Isaiah 6:3 Angels called God Holy alone?
  6. In Genesis 18 God and two angels visit Abraham. Here is a case where God is consulting with two angels and DOES NOT USE US. Three went down to do joint work, but God uses the singular "I" over and over again when actually talking to the two angels! If ever there should be a precedent for US/OUR including God and angels, this would be it.

    "Then the [three] men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. Yahweh said, "Shall I [not we] hide from Abraham what I am about to do, " (Genesis 18:16-17)


I hope that you will answer the points I have raised in your response to explanation of Genesis 1:26

Alter2Ego wrote:In other words, at Genesis 1:26 when Jehovah said "let us make man in our image," he was specifically talking to the angel identified as the pre-human Jesus Christ.  We know this is the case, because Colossians 1:15-17 tells us that God created Jesus Christ as the "firstborn of all creation," and that Jehovah created all other things through or by means of the pre-human Jesus.   "{15} He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16} because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him [Jesus] all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17 -- New World Translation)

  1. As it is written in Colossians 1, Jesus is the image of the invisible God, then God must be conversing with Jesus when He said 'Let us make man in Our image... (Genesis 1:26) - Where is God conversing with angels in Genesis 1:26?

  2. vs 16 - because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible The Bible clearly says Jesus created things in heavens - Can you explain what things Jesus created in Heavens? Angels?
  3. If Jesus is the creator as mentioned in Colossians 1 then God must be conversing with Jesus in Genesis 1:26 and not with the Angels


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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Mon 10 Nov 2014, 10:07 pm

FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION



The description "first-born of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. Whereas, First Created in Greek would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation.

Alter2Ego wrote:I will deal with the second of your "Trinity" verses the next time I log in.

Please do that and I will be waiting for your replies.

Koran as Muslim's Bible
Kindly quote any Muslims website that calls Koran as Bible of Muslims or even quote a verse from Koran that support your point.

Remember:
I called and proved you to be a liar and ignorant and I will keep proving that whenever you will try to twist the verses of the Bible to mislead others.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 3:32 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:[justify]
Alter2Ego wrote:You can twist it in an attempt to make me seem like a coward, as you are doing above.  I will not stay on any website where the moderator/administrator shows up playing the role of flamebaiter.  Once a moderator/administrator does that, it becomes an open invitation for regular members to do the same thing.  I speak from experience. I have been at dozens of websites across the internet and have seen what happens when the moderators/administrators take the lead in that type of behavior.   Since there are dozens of debate websites across the internet. I can afford to pick and choose.
I never proved you to be a coward rather I proved you to be a Liar just like Charles T Russell is proved liar. You proved my point by stating same thing again and again. If you are so busy on other websites then finish those discussions and then come and debate with me.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

The only thing you have managed to prove thus far is that you are incapable of proving a 3-in-1 god in the Judeo-Christian Bible or that Jehovah is a sadist who torments people in eternal flames. Because you realize you cannot prove either for the Bible, you resort to schoolyard insults by referring to your opponent as coward and liar.  

I am familiar with your behavior, by the way.  I get that from members of Christendom whenever they realize they cannot overcome Biblical context.  They then turn to the usual JW taunts.  

I suggest you concentrate on trying to find scriptural support for your false dogma. JW taunts will get you nowhere in a discussion where proof must be presented from the Bible--proof that you are clearly lacking.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 3:42 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Alter2Ego wrote:Notice that I bolded in light blue the words Us and Our in the quotation you presented from Genesis 1:26.  Whenever the pronouns "us" and "our" are used in the Old Testament and Jehovah is part of the conversation, it means Almighty God was speaking to at least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)[/b]

Was God speaking to Angels?
[list=1]
[*] Let us make man... If God was conversing with angels as you have said, then my question is - Can Angels create? Give a proof from the Bible;



[*]

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

Jehovah the Father is the only being in existence with the power of creating.  I informed you in a previous post that Jehovah did the creating through or by means of one of his angels and that that angel is identified in the Bible as "the firstborn of all creation."  Below is the the explanation and scriptural account that I previously gave you.  Focus on the words that I bolded in the opening paragraph, as well as the words that are bolded in the scriptural account.



Alter2Ego wrote:In other words, at Genesis 1:26 when Jehovah said "let us make man in our image," he was specifically talking to the angel identified as the pre-human Jesus Christ.  We know this is the case, because Colossians 1:15-17 tells us that God created Jesus Christ as the "firstborn of all creation," and that Jehovah created all other things through or by means of the pre-human Jesus.  

"{15} He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; {16} because by means of him [Jesus] all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. {17} Also, he is before all other things and by means of him [Jesus] all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17 -- New World Translation)

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 4:13 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:If Lucifer and the other angels who rebelled against God were made in the image and likeness of God, then is it in the nature of God to mislead others?

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

There is no angel in the Bible identified as "Lucifer".  The angels that rebelled against Jehovah included Satan, the Devil.


Waqar Daniel wrote:[*]According to Bible, Angels are not created in the image of God, only man is created in the image and likeness of God;

[*]

According to the Bible, where?  Be sure and quote scripture and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse where it indicates "angels are not created in the image of God."

Waqar Daniel wrote:[*]In Genesis 18 God and two angels visit Abraham. Here is a case where God is consulting with two angels and DOES NOT USE US. Three went down to do joint work, but God uses the singular "I" over and over again when actually talking to the two angels! If ever there should be a precedent for US/OUR including God and angels, this would be it.


All three of the beings that appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-3 were angels.  Two of them went on to Sodom to save Lot and his family, and the third angel-- because he became Jehovah's chief spokesman at that point in time--was referred to as "Jehovah" by Abraham.  Scripture informs us that Abraham could not have literally been talking to Almighty God Jehovah. Below is one such scripture.  


"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Version)

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:[justify]FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION



The description "first-born of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. Whereas, First Created in Greek would be proto with ktizo, and it is not used here. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation.

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

The verse at Colossians 1:15 specifically says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature.
 

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:" (Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version)

"He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:15 -- New World Translation)



The word "OF" puts Jesus Christ squarely within the group of "every creature" that was "born".  So we have several words in that single verse that says Jesus Christ was created.  We have the word "firstborn", the word "of" and the word "creature".


DEFINITION OF "BORN":  "Born means having been given life."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born


DEFINITION OF "OF":
belonging to, relating to, or connected with (someone or something)
—used to indicate that
someone or something belongs to a group of people or things
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/of


DEFINITION OF "CREATURE": "1.  something created either animate or inanimate:"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creature


As all those reading this thread can see, anyone that is "BORN" is automatically a created being.  Anyone that is "OF" all "creatures" is likewise a created being because a "creature" is something or someone that was created by Almighty God Jehovah.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 8:16 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:The only thing you have managed to prove thus far is that you are incapable of proving a 3-in-1 god in the Judeo-Christian Bible or that Jehovah is a sadist who torments people in eternal flames. Because you realize you cannot prove either for the Bible, you resort to schoolyard insults by referring to your opponent as coward and liar.
Prove that I have been incapable of proving Trinity. I gave you 14 references from the Bible and you only chose one reference that is Genesis 1:26 to discuss on and you miserably failed to prove that you are not a liar.

Here are references once again from the Bible for Trinity:

  1. "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)
  2. "Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever -'" (Genesis 3:22)
  3. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech." (Genesis 11:7)
  4. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. 7Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee." (Psalms 45:6-7)
  5. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!'" (Isaiah 6:8)
  6. "Come near to Me [God], listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (Isaiah 48:6)
  7. “I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord [YHWH]. 11“I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,” declares the Lord." (Amos 4:10-11)
  8. "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” (Mathew 3:16-17)
  9. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (Mathew 28:19)
  10. "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons." (1 Cor 12:4-6)
  11. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." (2 Cor 13:14)
  12. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:4-6)
  13. "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure." (1 Peter 1:2)
  14. "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life." (Jude 20:21)



Regarding Hell Fire, I have again quoted verses from the Bible:

Hell Fire
"Many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mathew 8:11-12)
If Hell Fire will burn them to ashes then who will be in agony (weeping and gnashing of teeth)?
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Mathew 13:41-42)
By rejecting hell fire we only justify our actions whereas, our LORD and Savior said "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." (Mathew 25:41)
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15)

You never commented on the references that I took from the Bible and quoted for you. So you just ignored them and went on your with your childish knowledge quoting from dictionaries. Please do remember, I am not taunting at JW before you people are already a big joke so why should I waste my time.

Kindly refer to the verses from the Bible that I quoted for:

  1. Trinity;
  2. Hell Fire.

If you have so much knowledge then discuss those verses one by and refute them as I take your points in your posts one by one and refute them and prove you to be a liar.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 8:43 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:Notice that I bolded in light blue the words Us and Our in the quotation you presented from Genesis 1:26. Whenever the pronouns "us" and "our" are used in the Old Testament and Jehovah is part of the conversation, it means Almighty God was speaking to at least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels.
VS
Alter2Ego wrote:In other words, at Genesis 1:26 when Jehovah said "let us make man in our image," he was specifically talking to the angel identified as the pre-human Jesus Christ. We know this is the case, because Colossians 1:15-17 tells us that God created Jesus Christ as the "firstborn of all creation," and that Jehovah created all other things through or by means of the pre-human Jesus.
Don't you think you are confused here. At one point in the same post you are saying that ...it means Almighty God was speaking to at least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels and at the point you say that ...he was specifically talking to the angel identified as pre-human Jesus Christ.

So my question here is, whom was God the Father was speaking to

  1. At least one of his millions of spirit sons/angels;
  2. Jesus Christ the Son of the God Most High?


Kindly answer this question.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 8:54 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:According to the Bible, where?  Be sure and quote scripture and provide Bible book, chapter, and verse where it indicates "angels are not created in the image of God."
I can only laugh at your question that where is written that angels were not created in the image and likeness of God - You are asking me a proof from the Bible, kindly show me a proof from the Bible where it is written that angels were created in the image and likeness of God - Can you do that?

Who was created in the Image and Likeness of God?
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:26-28)
I have following questions for you to answer:

  1. Who was created in the image and likeness of God - Adam or Angels?
  2. Who God blessed to be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, subdue it...? Adam or Angels?
  3. According to Bible do Angels reproduce (multiply)?


Please answer these questions.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 9:23 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:The verse at Colossians 1:15 specifically says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature. "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:" (Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version) "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:15 -- New World Translation) The word "OF" puts Jesus Christ squarely within the group of "every creature" that was "born". So we have several words in that single verse that says Jesus Christ was created. We have the word "firstborn", the word "of" and the word "creature". DEFINITION OF "BORN": "Born means having been given life." http://www.yourdictionary.com/born DEFINITION OF "OF": belonging to, relating to, or connected with (someone or something) —used to indicate that someone or something belongs to a group of people or things http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/of DEFINITION OF "CREATURE": "1. something created either animate or inanimate:" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creature As all those reading this thread can see, anyone that is "BORN" is automatically a created being. Anyone that is "OF" all "creatures" is likewise a created being because a "creature" is something or someone that was created by Almighty God Jehovah.
Your description over is here really funny and I feel sorry for your ignorance. I am quoting a very interesting part of your comment
Alter2Ego wrote:As all those reading this thread can see, anyone that is "BORN" is automatically a created being. Anyone that is "OF" all "creatures" is likewise a created being because a "creature" is something or someone that was created by Almighty God Jehovah.
Your logic is really funny - Your logic says that is a person is born then automatically that person whether male or female becomes a "created being".

Using your logic and and principle in deciphering Colossians 1:15 , if Jesus is born of God and according to you Jesus becomes a created being and God a creator then using your principle and logic you were born of your parents so this means that your parents are your creators and not God. Isn't it so?
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:16)
Now here verse 16 says that Jesus is the creator of everything that in heavens and on earth then how can a creator become a created being? You are too confused.

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Waqar Daniel on Sat 15 Nov 2014, 9:43 pm

Alter2Ego wrote:All three of the beings that appeared to Abraham at Genesis 18:1-3 were angels. Two of them went on to Sodom to save Lot and his family, and the third angel-- because he became Jehovah's chief spokesman at that point in time--was referred to as "Jehovah" by Abraham. Scripture informs us that Abraham could not have literally been talking to Almighty God Jehovah. Below is one such scripture. "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:18 -- King James Version)
Really it is again too funny - When did I say it was God the Father who went down to see Abraham? Kindly refer to the topic, I think we were discussing Trinity. I simply referred to Jesus being with Abraham and Angels. Was that too hard for you to understand?

I do not like to repeat things again and again for this is wasting my time. Kindly address to the verses I have quoted in favor of Trinity, Hell and Hell Fire, either reject them with proof from the Bible or accept them as Word of God. If you want to discuss this topic further then do it by quoting references from the Bible instead of quoting dictionaries.

You have yet to give me proof regarding your statement that Quran is the Bible of Mohammed. Now prove it with proper accurate reference from a Muslim website(s), or from Quran, or from Hadiths. If you cannot prove just admit it and I will explain you why Quran cannot be called Bible of Mohammed if you are willing to believe in facts.


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Waqar Daniel
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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

Post  Alter2Ego on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 7:13 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Alter2Ego wrote:The only thing you have managed to prove thus far is that you are incapable of proving a 3-in-1 god in the Judeo-Christian Bible or that Jehovah is a sadist who torments people in eternal flames. Because you realize you cannot prove either for the Bible, you resort to schoolyard insults by referring to your opponent as coward and liar.
Prove that I have been incapable of proving Trinity. I gave you 14 references from the Bible and you only chose one reference that is Genesis 1:26 to discuss on and you miserably failed to prove that you are not a liar.

Here are references once again from the Bible for Trinity:
[list=1]
[*]"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" (Genesis 1:26)

[*]

ALTER2EGO -to- WAQAR DANIEL:

All 14 of your references fail.  And that's 14 verses out of thousands of the verses in the Bible that tells us God is not a Trinity.  

You were shown why Genesis 1:26 does not support the Trinity dogma.  Jehovah the Father said "let US make man in OUR image" at a time when there were millions of angelic sons in existence.  According to you and other Trinitarians, Genesis 1:26 means God was talking to himself.  In reality, Scripture says Jehovah was talking to one of his angelic sons.  That angelic son is clearly identified at Colossians 1:15-17.

Christendom's Trinity requires three persons that are CO-EQUAL and CO-ETERNAL and then combined into a single "Godhead." Throughout the Bible, Jesus Christ is depicted as NOT being eternal and as being subservient to Jehovah--meaning Jehovah is more powerful.  Colossians 1:15 says Jesus Christ was created, as follows:


"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of EVERY CREATURE:" (Colossians 1:15 -- King James Version)  


The word "OF" as in "firstborn of every creature" puts Jesus Christ among created beings.  A creature is a created being.
 

DEFINITION OF "CREATURE": "1.  something created either animate or inanimate:"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/creature

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Re: Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

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