The Concept of Trinity

Pastor Tue 16 Jun 2009, 10:25 pm

The word “trinity” is not found in Scripture. It is a word used by Christians to express the doctrine of the unity of God as consisting of three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Greek word trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.

he propositions involved in the doctrine are these:

That God is one, and that there is but one God
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Deuteronomy 6:4)

That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else. (1 Kings 8:60)

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (Mark 12:29)

I and my Father are one. (John 1:30)
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit.

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

The doctrine is also based on the use of the words “us” and “our” when the Son of God (“The Word”) created Man (Gen. 1:26)

Although equal in divinity, the Father is in a position of authority or hierarchy over Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of God (John 14:28, 13:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Phil. 2:6-8).

googleboy3 Fri 19 Jun 2009, 11:26 pm

Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely
and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the
"true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black
darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's
children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature
of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that
Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties
that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take
them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece
together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did
Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost
and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"?
If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement
to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter
disputes, division, and animosity.

Littlelamb Sat 20 Jun 2009, 3:14 am

Very good teaching, Pastor.

To answer googleboy3 (derprinz)'s question,

Did Jesus leave his closest and dearest followers so completely
and utterly baffled and lost that they never even realized the
"true" nature of God? Did he leave them in such black
darkness that neither they nor their children, nor yet their children's
children would ever come to recognize the "true" nature
of the One they are to worship? Do we really want to allege that
Jesus was so thoroughly incompetent in the discharge of his duties
that he left his followers in such utter chaos that it would take
them fully three centuries after his departure to finally piece
together the nature of the One whom they are to worship? Why did
Jesus never, even once, just say "God, the Holy Ghost
and I are three Persons in one Trinity. Worship all of us as one"?
If he had only chosen to make just one such explicit statement
to them he could have relieved Christianity of centuries of bitter
disputes, division, and animosity.

The BIBLE mentions all three personas, of the Trinity, in these two verses:

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Who is GOD the FATHER?

Only one God - Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9
There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10
Knows all things - 1 John 3:20
All powerful - Psalm 115:3
Everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24
Sovereign - Zech. 9:14; 1 Tim. 6:15-16
Spirit - John 4:24
Created all that exists - Gen. 1:1; Isaiah 44:24
Does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39
Always been Eternal - Psalm 90:2 Isaiah 57:15 ;
The Supreme Being. - Rev. 4:8
Omnipotent- Jer. 32:17,27
Omnipresent - Psalm 119:7-12
Omniscient - 1 John 3:20
He is Love - 1 John 4:8,16
God is Light - 1 John 1:5
God is Truth - Psalm 117:2

Who is JESUS?

Jesus is the Son of God and the second persona of God - John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
Jesus is God in flesh - John 1:1,14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
Jesus became a man - Phil. 2:5-8
Jesus has two natures: divine and human - Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5
Jesus was sinless - 1 Pet. 2:22
Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6; Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22
Jesus died for all our sins - 1 John 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:14; 1 Pet. 2:24
Jesus' sacrifice was a substitution, for us - 1 Pet. 2:24
Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21
Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11

Who is the HOLY SPIRIT (HOLY GHOST) (COMFORTER) ?

The Holy Spirit the third persona of God - Acts 5:3-4
The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2

The Comforter, was also referred to and known throughout the Old Testiment. JESUS speaks about the FATHER, sending the COMFORTER, when JESUS leaves us, to REIGN in HEAVEN.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

You see, we can TRUST the WORD of our LORD, because it remains INFALLABLE, after nearly 6000 years. Many have tried over the last 6000 years, to disprove the BIBLE, and all have failed to do so. WHY? Because IT is the WORD of the LORD, which will never come back void.

May the LORD BLESS you, for you seeking TRUTH, even though you may not realize your reason for being on this Christian Forum. I believe it is CHRIST JESUS, that is placing a desire in your heart, to come here. I haven't stopped praying that your eyes and ears be opened to the TRUTH of the WORD of our LORD. There is only ONE TRUE and LIVING GOD. Your prophet, lies in a grave. You consider JESUS as a prophet, but yet HIS GRAVE is EMPTY, because HE is SEATED at the RIGHT HAND of the FATHER in HEAVEN. HE is COMMING AGAIN, just as the WORD, states. Will you be ready to meet HIM?

googleboy4 Sat 20 Jun 2009, 4:01 pm

For He does not speak through or in His essence (the Father), but
rather through the part that is named (The Mind).Also He is not alive
in His essence but through the part that is named (The Spirit).Of
course this concept of partition and unification cannot be applied to
God, because it requires that God must be:

And of course this is not befitting in relation to The Majesty of
the First, The Almighty, The Eternal and The Absolute Self Sufficient
Maker of all things.

googleboy4 Sat 20 Jun 2009, 4:05 pm

In addition to this, the “Statement of Faith” declares Jesus Christ
who was begotten by His Father. This conveys the meaning that the
Father preceded Jesus. Clearly there is no meaning for Jesus being (The
Son) if His existence did not follow that of the Father, because the
Father and Son could not have logically existed together for all
eternity (sequence and consequence). The example of the Son?s
similarity to the concept of Word of Mouth cannot be logically used to
argue against this because the (mouth) must have existed prior to the
(word) coming out of it.
A similar rationale can be applied to the Holy Spirit which emanated
from he Father. These two concepts require that God was both, mute and
(not alive) prior to the emanation of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Here
we are forced to imagine a three or two-stage evolution of the
Christian God, where the Son’s existence and the emanation of the Holy
Spirit followed that of the eternal Father.
This of course cannot be argued out of by saying that the Divine
does not submit to the concept of Time, because naturally and according
to the Trinity, The Father is a must and a pre-requisite of both, The
Son and The Holy Spirit. Here we have to repeat what was already
decided earlier .That these three entities are parts that are needy of
each in order to exist. Consequently there will have to be a unifying
agent needed to bring them together to form the (One God) , because all
things consisting of parts require a builder . This places God in a
theoretical position far from divinity.

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 20 Jun 2009, 7:39 pm

You have decided to make your own rules. The concept of Trinity in Koran is different to what you are relating to:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Koran 5:116]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Koran 4:171

Allah and Mohammed did not even know what is the doctrine of Trinity. Allah thought that Christians believe in father, Son and Mary.

Now let me explain Trinity to you:

He made the earth by His power;
He founded the world by His wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by
His understanding (Jeremiah 51:15)

Now remember when the Bible says GOD it means Heavenly Father and when Bible says LORD God it means Jesus Christ.

He made the earth by His power

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light (Genesis 1:1-3)

Now watch the words in the verse 3, it says And God said, it does not say and God made light.

He founded the world by His wisdom

God saw that light was good...(Genesis 1:4)

God commanded but who do it? It was Jesus Christ, the wisdom who did it for God the Father.

Through Him (Jesus) all things were made; without Him (Jesus) nothing was made. (John 1:3)

and stretched out the heavens bu His understanding

Holy Spirit gives us understanding as Jesus tells the apostles something really incredible and something that the apostles did not want to hear. In John 16:5 he tells them, "But now I am going to Him that sent me." And in John 16:7, Jesus then tells them something very strange and something that the apostles could not even begin to understand. John 16:7 "It is for your benefit that I am going away." John 14:17 "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you".

I ask you a simple question: What law of logic is it that the doctrine of the Trinity violates?

LivinginChrist Sat 20 Jun 2009, 7:52 pm

God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, "Another Look at the Trinity")

Jesus, the Son, is one person with two natures: Divine and Human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. The Holy Spirit is also divine in nature and is self aware, the third person of the Trinity.

There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13).

A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a creation and the Holy Spirit as a force (Jehovah's Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father, became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son (where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (Oneness theology). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism).

The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrate these qualities.
The chart below should help you to see how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from scripture. The list is not exhaustive, only illustrative.

The first step is to establish the biblical doctrine that there is only one God. Then, you find that each of the persons is called God, each creates, each was involved in Jesus' resurrection, each indwells, etc. Therefore, God is one, but the one God is in three simultaneous persons. Please note that the idea of a composite unity is not a foreign concept to the Bible; after all, man and wife are said to be one flesh. The idea of a composite unity of persons is spoken of by God in Genesis (Gen. 2:24).
There is only one God

The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 45:5).
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God," (Isaiah 55:5).

The Trinity
	FATHER	SON	HOLY SPIRIT
Called God	Phil. 1:2	John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9	Acts 5:3-4
Creator	Isaiah 64:8	John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17	Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects	1 Thess. 1:10	John 2:19, 10:17	Rom. 8:11
Indwells	2 Cor. 6:16	Col. 1:27	John 14:17
Everywhere	1 Kings 8:27	Matt. 28:20	Psalm 139:7-10
All knowing	1 John 3:20	John 16:30; 21:17	1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies	1 Thess. 5:23	Heb. 2:11	1 Pet. 1:2
Life giver	Gen. 2:7: John 5:21	John 1:3; 5:21	2 Cor. 3:6,8
Fellowship	1 John 1:3	1 Cor. 1:9	2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1
Eternal	Psalm 90:2	Micah 5:1-2	Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14
A Will	Luke 22:42	Luke 22:42	1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks	Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25	Luke 5:20; 7:48	Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2
Love	John 3:16	Eph. 5:25	Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart	Jer. 17:10	Rev. 2:23	1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to	John 17:9	John 17:6	. . .
Savior	1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10	2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6	. . .
We serve	Matt. 4:10	Col. 3:24	. . .
Believe in	John 14:1	John 14:1	. . .
Gives joy	. . .	John 15:11	John 14:7
Judges	John 8:50	John 5:21,30	. . .

Source:CARM

googleboy5 Sat 20 Jun 2009, 8:25 pm

What a freedom of speech Daniel
and why you answer and you ban me
isn't that unfair ?

as usual you attack quran and avoid answering

Allah and Mohammed did not even know what is the doctrine of Trinity.
Allah thought that Christians believe in father, Son and Mary.

Ok, well read the official rosary of the Catholic Church!

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our
sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we
send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious
advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed
fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/rosary.htm

In 1998, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannia there were 1040 million Catholics and
only 361 million Protestants.
The ACTUAL POSITION of MANY Christian Churches is MORE
RIDICULOUS:

"Mary is Mother of God

"495 ... In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the
Holy Spirit, who truly became her son according to the flesh, was none other than the
Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church
confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [Catechism of the Catholic Church,] (p. 125)"

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/mary.htm

The Roman and Orthodox Catholic Churches INSIST Mary "IS" "Mother of
GOD"!
While it is true that most Christians TODAY do not worship Mary, but MANY heretical
Christians THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAD DONE SO.

Regarding Sura 5 Verse 116 :

"And behold! Allah will say: O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst
thou say unto men, Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? He will say: Glory to
Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou
wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is
in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

The above question will be put to Jesus(peace be upon him) on the DAY OF
JUDGEMENT. And the purpose of Sura 5 Verse 116 is to answer ALL the Christians
THROUGHOUT the entire history of Christianity.

Let us not forget that ALL mankind since the beginning of time will be resurrected on
the Day of Judgement. Therefore it is only logical to answer the dilemma faced, not
only by the Christians in our present era but by all Christians throughout the history of
Christianity.

Let us also not forget that Christianity has never been a united religion and will
never be. On the contrary, it has always been a totally divided religion.

googleboy5 Sat 20 Jun 2009, 8:44 pm

just a remark for Genesis
(1:1-19). “There was evening and there was morning,” we are told, “one
day… a second day… a third day,” but as any astronomer knows, evening
(night) and morning (daylight) result from the earth’s rotation with
respect to the sun. With no sun, there would have certainly been
evening or night, but there could have been no morning.
On the fourth day when God created the “two great lights” (the sun
and the moon), he created the stars too. This creation of the rest of
the universe was treated by the Genesis writer(s) as if it were little
more than an afterthought: “he made the stars also” (v:16). To the
prescientific mind that wrote this, it probably made sense. To him
(her), the earth was undoubtedly the center of the universe, but today
we know better. The solar system of which earth is only a tiny part is
itself an infinitesimal speck in the universe.

do u really think this is from God !!!!!!!!!!!

I ask you a simple question: What law of logic is it that the doctrine of the Trinity violates?

i guess that it's hard for you to understand what is logical and what is illogical
for example when you tell someone "I ask you" then you ban him
this is illogical

the trinity is also something illogical
i explained that and i repeat it
this concept of partition and unification cannot be applied to
God, because it requires that God must be:
1. In need of these parts, and;
2. In need of a unifying agent that will put these parts together
because anything that consists of parts requires a maker of the parts
and a unifier that will bring them together.
3.“Statement of Faith” declares Jesus Christ
who was begotten by His Father. This conveys the meaning that the
Father preceded Jesus. Clearly there is no meaning for Jesus being (The
Son) if His existence did not follow that of the Father, because the
Father and Son could not have logically existed together for all
eternity (sequence and consequence)
the (mouth) must have existed prior to the (word) coming out of it

googleboy5 Sat 20 Jun 2009, 9:03 pm

let's see together what the bible say

-	Explicit Statement
God is ONE	Isaiah 43:10-11, Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14
God is THREE	-

-	Explicit Statement	Implicit Statement
God is ONE	Isaiah 43:10-11, Deuteronomy 4:39, Isaiah 45:18, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 45:6, Isaiah 45:22, Exodus 20:3, Exodus 34:14	-
God is THREE	None so far	Matthew 28:19, I Corinthians 12:4-6, II Corinthians 13:14, Jude 1:20-21

what I wanted
was a verse that says something like "God, Jesus and the
Holy Ghost are all gods, however, they are not three gods but
one God," or "God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost
are the same being," or "God, Jesus, and the
Holy Ghost are one and the same" etc.

Just because the words "God," "Jesus," and
"Holy Ghost" might appear together in one verse does
not mean this verse requires a "Trinity," or "merging
of three into one." Even if this verse also contains the
word "one" this still does not necessarily require a
"Trinity." For example, if I say "Joe, Jim,
and Frank speak one language" this is not the same as
saying "Joe, Jim, and Frank are one person."

Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

If ex-President George Bush told General Norman Schwartzkopf to
"Go ye therefore, and speak to the Iraqis, chastising
them in the name of the United States, Great Britain, and the
Soviet Union," does this require that these three countries
are one physical country? They may be one in purpose
and in their goals but this does in no way require that
they are the same physical entity.
I Corinthians 12:4-6
"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God
which worketh all in all."

If I were to say: "There are diversities of gifts, but
the same Santa Claus. And there are differences of administrations,
but the same government. And there are a diversity of operations,
but the same God worketh all in all." Do God, the US
government and Santa Claus now form another "Trinity"?
Is this indeed how this verse was meant to be read? Is it impossible
to receive "gifts," "administrations," and
"operations" except from ONE person? There is
a big difference between this verse and between saying "God,
Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same." Even in
the very best case, no one who reads I Corinthians 12:4-6 will
claim that it explicitly states that the three are one,
they themselves will have to admit that it only implies
such a connection. So now we need to ask: Why would God Almighty
need to resort to implying His triune nature if this is
indeed what He intended? What is preventing Him from simply coming
out and stating His intent clearly if this is indeed what He meant?

Why does everything have to be so abstract? If this is the true
nature of God then why can't the Bible just come out and say "God,
Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are physically joined in one being"
or "God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same."
Is this so very hard? Look at how much less space this would require.
Look at how infinitely more clear and decisive that would be.
Look at the clear cut decisiveness of Deuteronomy 4:39
"Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart,
that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath:
there is none else."

God does not philosophize and speak all the way around matters.
He speaks clearly and in no uncertain terms so that there can
be no doubt as to what He meant. If God was indeed a Trinity
why would He not simply just come out and say so, just as clearly
and decisively as He does when He speaks about his uniqueness?
II Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,
and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen."

If I say: "May the genius of Einstein, the philosophy
of Descartes, and the strength of Schwarzenegger be with you all"
does this require all three to be joined in a "Trinity"?
Does it require that Einstein is Descartes (or a
different "side" of Descartes)? Does it require that
Descartes is Schwarzenegger (or a different "side"
of Schwarzenegger)?

CONCERNING 1 John 5:7:
choose which one of the following is the word of God about 1 John 5:7, NKJV or NAS?
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV Bible)

--OR--

"And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit
is the truth." (NAS Bible)

The above two Bibles (NKJV and NAS) are one of the most used Bibles among Christians.
Yet, we see a great deal of contradiction among their translations!.

Newton on I John 5:7

Newton states that this verse appeared for the first time in the third edition of
Erasmus's New Testament. When they got the Trinity; into his edition they threw by
their manuscript, if they had one, as an almanac out of date. And can such shuffling
dealings satisfy considering men?....It is rather a danger in religion than an advantage
to make it now lean on a broken reed. In all the vehement universal and lasting
controversy about the Trinity in Jerome's time and both before and long enough after it,
this text of the "three in heaven" was never once thought of. It is now in
everybody's mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have
been so too with them, had it been in their books. "Let
them make good sense of it who are able. For my part, I can make none. If it be said
that we are not to determine what is Scripture what not by our private judgments, I
confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what
I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious art of mankind in
matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what
they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that
honour for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his
which is the best."
we find that when thirty two biblical scholars backed
by fifty cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised
Standard Version of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available
to them today, they made some very extensive changes. Among these changes was the
unceremonious discardal of the verse of 1 John 5:7 as the fabricated insertion that it is.
For more on the compilation of the RSV Bible, please read the preface of any modern copy
of that Bible.

**Waqar Daniel** Sun 21 Jun 2009, 2:35 pm

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:What a freedom of speech Daniel and why you answer and you ban me isn't that unfair?

I have given you lot of freedom, will I get such freedom on a muslim site? You lied, you made a fake ID "LoveJesus" and tried to deceive others by saying that reading the discussion between you and me, now you want to know the truth, and showed as if this "LoveJesus" wants to know about Islam. I have shown what Islam is.

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:as usual you attack quran and avoid answering

When did I avoid to answer you questions. Show me. You have avoided many questions and simply either went around them or just wrote a little. I can show such many incidents. You come here to prove that Koran is superior, if I show you verses from the Koran that contradicts your claim, then is it my fault? If I talk of paradise of Islam - Is it my fault? It is all written in Koran. Don't call it "attack" call it truth.

Again you are very wrong, Allah and Mohammed never knew what Trinity is, that is why we find a different concept of Trinity. I still remember, when I was a child my teachers and fellow students used to ask, did God marry Mary. It was all due the concept of Trinity in the Koran.

Hail Mary is a prayer and not a part of Trinity. The concept of Trinity is found in the Nicene Creed and I am writing it for you:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;
God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God;
begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father,
by Whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man:
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried:
And the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures:
And ascended into Heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father:
And he shall come again, with glory, to judge both the quick and the dead:
Whose Kingdom will have no end:

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified,
Who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
And I look for the Resurrection of the Dead:
And the Life of the world to come. Amen.

Where is Mary mentioned over here? Therefore, Allah and Mohammed never knew the concept of Trinity. I will quote the verse of Koran here once again:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Koran 5:116

See how wrong, your Allah, Mohammed and you are. Your Allah didn't even know that Hail Mary (Ave Maria) was a traditional prayer for intercession and nothing more. It is neither a Church doctrine nor a dogma. It is only a prayer that Roman Catholics pray on regular basis.

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:we find that when thirty two biblical scholars backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised
Standard Version of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available
to them today, they made some very extensive changes. Among these changes was the
unceremonious discardal of the verse of 1 John 5:7 as the fabricated insertion that it is.
For more on the compilation of the RSV Bible, please read the preface of any modern copy
of that Bible.

Actually the problem is that Ahmedeedat, Dr. Zakir Naik and you all forget about Koran. Will you please comment on the following verse from the Koran:

Koran 22:52-53
And We did not send before you any apostle or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise, So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,

Sorry due to my schedule and commitments, the rest I will comment on later

AngelicSmile Sun 21 Jun 2009, 4:08 pm

Rosary

Rosary has nothing to do with Trinity because it is a prayer.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Rosary (from Latin rosarium, meaning "rose garden" or "garland of roses") is a popular and traditional Roman Catholic devotion. The term denotes both a set of prayer beads and the devotional prayer itself, which combines vocal (or silent) prayer and meditation. The prayers consist of repeated sequences of the Lord's Prayer followed by ten prayings of the Hail Mary and a single praying of "Glory Be to the Father"; each of these sequences is known as a decade. The praying of each decade is accompanied by meditation on one of the Mysteries of the Rosary, which are events in the lives of Jesus Christ and his mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The traditional 15 Mysteries of the Rosary were finalized by the 16th century. The mysteries are grouped into three sets: the joyful mysteries, the sorrowful mysteries, and the glorious mysteries. In 2002, Pope John Paul II announced five new optional mysteries, the luminous mysteries, bringing the total number of mysteries to 20.

The term has come to be used to refer to similar beads in other religions.

planet_shakers Sun 21 Jun 2009, 4:57 pm

Koran 9:30
And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Allah is not clear who is who in Judaism or Christianity. Allah says that Jews consider Ezra (Uzair) as son of God, this is totally against the faith of Judaism. They do not consider anyone as Son of God except the Messiah. There is no historically documented evidence that Ezra was ever called Son of God.

googleboy5 Mon 22 Jun 2009, 12:25 am

daniel wrote :
Allah and Mohammed never knew the concept of Trinity.

The Quran
does condemn both trinitarianism (Quran 4:17) and the worship of Jesus
and his mother Mary (Quran 5:116), nowhere does it identify the actual
three components of the Christian Trinity.

and yes there are christians who worship marry
i already explained that
let me explain more

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I was
devoted to Mary. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by sincere people. I prayed the rosary, including rosary novenas. I wore a Brown Scapular and a Miraculous Medal. (You can read about these things in the Glossary, which is Appendix
C.) I visited shrines that honor Mary. I had beautiful statues of Mary. I attended special services where we prayed to Mary and recited a litany of titles honoring her. I read books about apparitions of Mary, and dreamed of visiting Lourdes and Fatima. I participated in processions honoring Mary. A statue of Mary was put on a platform that was decorated with flowers.
There were poles on the platform, so that men could carry it. The men walked through the streets, carrying the statue on the platform. We walked behind the statue, singing songs in Mary’s honor.

When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus.
He kept saying, over and over: "Mary, my mother!" Polish pilgrims placed
a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the
Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave
Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her. (Note 4)

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the "Hail Holy Queen," which is known in Latin as the "Salve Regina". It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."
Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled "The Glories of Mary" which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there
is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a "doctor of the Church" (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have
influenced popes. (Note 9)

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that
"[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself
redeemed mankind." (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said: "Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her." (Note 11)

So note how this person explains how Catholics WORSHIP Mary, and look to her as a God, I mean they put their salvation in Mary!

Now Christians may be saying well this is wrong, and that Catholics are committing blasphemy, EXACTLY! The Quran makes sure it condemns all forms of
blasphemy, just because this is not the trinity everyone is familiar with does not mean the Quran cannot condemn it. Secondly, there are lots of
Catholics and there have been a lot of Mary worshippers throughout history so to say this is just a minor issue is an under-statement, this is something widely practiced.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Mary's Divine motherhood

Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who assumed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the title "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]

Early writings

For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John's disciple Polycarp
[145]; he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord's life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary. For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ's death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer
concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian,
both of whom wrote before the end of the second century.

As it is admitted that the praises of
Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.

Let us now examine the dates of those Church Fathers who held Mary in such a high honorable position, as a Goddess you could say:

St. Ignatius of Antioch

Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.

St. Irenaeus
Information as to his life is scarce, and in some measure inexact. He was born in Proconsular Asia, or at least in some province bordering thereon, in the first half of the second century; the exact date is controverted, between the years 115 and 125, according to some, or, according to others, between 130 and 142

Tertullian
His conversion was not later than the year 197, and may have been earlier. He embraced the Faith with all the ardour of his impetuous nature. He became a
priest, no doubt of the Church of Carthage. Monceaux,
followed by d'Ales, considers that his earlier writings were
composed while he was yet a layman, and if this be so, then his ordination was about 200. His extant writings range in date from the apologetics of 197 to the attack on a bishop who is probably Pope Callistus (after 218). It was after the year 206 that he joined the Montanist sect, and he seems to have definitively
separated from the Church about 211 (Harnack) or 213 (Monceaux).
After writing more virulently against the Church than even against heathen and
persecutors, he separated from the Montanists and founded a
sect of his own. The remnant of the Tertullianists was
reconciled to the Church by St. Augustine. A number of the works of Tertullian are on special points of belief or discipline. According
to St. Jerome he lived to extreme old age.

Council of Ephesus
The third ecumenical council, held in 431.

So all these Church Fathers and Council which did see Mary as divine, all took place before Islam came and was revealed. Hence the Quran was merely exposing this
wrong blasphemous belief of the worship of Mary, and making her into a divine being
something she was not!

googleboy5 Mon 22 Jun 2009, 1:39 am

Will you please comment on the following verse from the Koran:

you are getting out of the subject
we are talking about trinity here
do you want to play this childish game ?
let we see first how you understood it

planet_shakers wrote
Koran 9:30

this is out of context
we are talking about trinity
but to help you i say
Few points to notice about Uzair:

1- According to Encyclopedia
Judaica, Vol. 6, Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, page 1108, Uzair was called the
Father of Judaism by the Jews.

2- According to the same resource in point
#1, the Arab Jews in Yemen did indeed consider Uzair as the "son of God".for more help check this
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/ezra.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/qb005.htm
and let me tell you something
Muslims and Christians both agree that the Noble Quran does not agree with today's
Bible in everything. Just because the Bible might disagree on something in the Noble
Quran, it doesn't at all negate the claim of the Noble Quran or make it false

Littlelamb Mon 22 Jun 2009, 5:20 am

Which book is older? The Quaran, or the BIBLE?

**Waqar Daniel** Tue 23 Jun 2009, 5:39 pm

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:you are getting out of the subject
we are talking about trinity here
do you want to play this childish game ?

No this not out of context. You are challenging the concept of Trinity because Koran says so and I am challenging Koran's authenticity.

Derprinz/googleboy5 wrote:According to Encyclopedia
Judaica, Vol. 6, Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, page 1108, Uzair was called the
Father of Judaism by the Jews.

All lies, the website you have quoted is http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/ezra-not-called-son.htm (Jews for Allah) what a ridiculous idea. This only a deception by muslims. Check another decption by muslims http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/qb005.htm and on this website the references are taken from Esdras and the Apocalypse of Ezra.

Ezra was only a High Priest and scribe and was never called or was never known as "Son of God". There is no historical proof. I am quoting from Jewish Encyclopedia.com

Biblical Data:

A descendant of Seraiah the high priest (Neh. viii. 13; Ezra vii. 1 et seq.; II Kings xxv. 18-21); a member of the priestly order, and therefore known also as Ezra the Priest (: Ezra vii. 11; x. 10, 16). The name, probably an abbreviation of "Azaryahu" (God helps), appears in Greek (LXX., Apocrypha, Josephus) and in Latin (Vulgate) as "Esdras." Though Ezra was one of the most important personages of his day, and of far-reaching influence upon the development of Judaism, his biography has to be reconstructed from scanty material, furnished in part by fragments from his own memoirs (see Ezra, Book of). The first definite mention of him is in connection with a royal firman granting him permission to lead a band of exiles back to Jerusalem (Ezra vii. 12-26). This edict was issued in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes, corresponding to 458 B.C. There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the document as incorporated in Aramaic in the Book of Ezra, though Jewish coloring may be admitted. The arguments advanced for the opposite view (Cornill, "Einleitung in das Alte Testament," p. 264; Driver, "Introduction to the Literature of the Old Testament," 10th ed., p. 550) at their utmost reflect on the verbal, not the virtual, accuracy of the decree. Nor is there any ground for holding that the king in question was any other than Artaxerxes Longimanus. A. van Hoonacker's contention ("Néhémie et Esdras," etc., Paris, 1890) that Ezra came to Jerusalem in the seventh year of Artaxerxes II. (397 B.C.; comp. Winckler, "Altorientalische Forschungen," ii. 2; Cheyne, in "Biblical World," Oct., 1899), is untenable (see Guthe, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel," p. 252; Piepenbring, "Histoire du Peuple d'Israel," p. 537; Kuenen, "Gesammelte Abhandlungen zur Bibl. Wissenschaft," ed. Budde, pp. 239 et seq.).

Rest you can read by visiting the Jewish Encyclopedia. See how much you base your information on lies and deception.

Abraham is regarded as "Father of Jews", because the statement recognizes the fact that the promises which led to the Jews found their origin in God's working with Abraham. Therefore, he is considered "the father of the Jews" in that he is their ancestor in a special way.

Here is the proof for you and for your Allah for he did not know the role of Ezra the High Priest:

Zechariah:
And his father Zachariah was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he has visited and redeemed his people, And has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, who have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he swore to our Father Abraham," (Luke 1:67-73)

Jesus Christ
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56)

Stephen before the "council" (sunedrio, Sanhedrin, Acts 6:15)
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran, (Acts 7:2)

The apostle Paul:
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found? (Romans 4:1)

James, writing to the twelve tribes:
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. . . . Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (Jas 1:1, 2:21)

So where is Ezra considered as "Son of God"? Bible does not say so and Jews do not say so, neither Jewish Encyclopedia says so.

Well regarding the Mary, do not quote people, quote Bible here. There are many who believe in many different things. If Pope says so what difference it makes. It only makes Pope as ignorant as Allah and Mohammed. The Bible makes no such claims. See I have never quoted you commentaries and have certainly never quoted you Shias. No where Bible says so and it was a mistake by Allah and Mohammed.

Remember, we are talking of doctrine, the doctrine that is in the Bible and the concept of Trinity that in Koran. And you never commented on the verse of Koran I quoted.

Sponsored content

The Concept of Trinity

The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity

Re: The Concept of Trinity