Who incited David - God or Satan?

sophie Sat 09 Feb 2008, 5:10 pm

Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, saying, "Go and number and take census of Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1)

VS

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (I Chronicles 21:1)

The question is who incited David to take census of Israel? Was it God or Satan? Then there are many other contradictions in the census.

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
	(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
	(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)

How many fighting men were found in Judah?
	(a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
	(b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
	(a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
	(b) Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

ChristianLady Sat 09 Feb 2008, 7:34 pm

The Bible tells us through the story of Job that for everything, everything needs permission of God like in case of Job, satan took permission of God to tempt him. In the same way satan incited David to number the Israelities to see how big is is his kingdom. The rest variation in the numbers may be due to the mistake made by the copyists. I may be wrong but this is what I found out due to my research on the Internet.

forhisglory Sun 10 Feb 2008, 5:22 pm

Sophie, Jesus loves you. Why do you look for any excuse to get away from God? Sophie you cannot fight God; your arm is to short to fight God. Just accept Him by faith and forsake your sin; the one that is keeping you from serving Him. We love you Sophie, and we are trying to help you see the light. But you have your own beliefs about God and who He is. I pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes and give you a child like faith. What do you have to loose is temporal, but salvation is for all eternity. God be with you in these hard times you are facing. forhisglory I love you

**Waqar Daniel** Sun 10 Feb 2008, 11:56 pm

Here is your answer to both the passages, you quoted from the 2 Samuel 24 and I Chronicles 21. The incident recorded in the 2 samuel 24 is different incident recorded in the I Chronicles 21. People mix them up to be one but they are totaly different incidents.

Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and He incited David against them, saying, "Go and take census of Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1 NIV)

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (I Chronicels 21:1 NIV)

Why did Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel? His anger burned against Israel because of numbering them. David forgot that it was God who made him successful against his enemies. The word Again makes 2 Samuel 24 incident second and incident recorded in the I chronicles first.

Incident recorded in 2 Samuel shows, David at his stronghold and the Philistine garrison was at Bethlehem, (2 Samuel 23:14) and it was Harvest Time when David ordered to number Israel. Whereas, it was Spring in I Chronicles and David was in Jerusalem (I Chronicles 20:3) when David ordered to number Israelites.

Samuel did not record the first event because Joab son of Zeruiah began to count the men but did not finish. Wrath came on account of this numbering and the number was not enetered in the book of the annals of King David (I Chronicles 27:23-24) And remember that in the first incident that is recorded in I Chronicles 21, Joab never completed his counting of Israelites who could fight, But Joab did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering because the king's command was repulsive to him (I Chronicles 21:6)

When I can prove that these are totally two different incidents, then, I need not to comment on numbers of able bodied men of Israel and Judah as recorded in 2 Samuel and I Chronicles.

God bless you

Crispus Fri 30 May 2008, 1:12 am

Hi Sophie. There are a couple of good commentaries about 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 on these pages.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/604

http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/con070.asp

God sent his prophet to threaten David with three years of famine. The words in Hebrew are similar and there was a copyist error in the Maosretic text. In the Septuagint both 2 Samuel 24:13 and 1 Chronicles 21:12 say three years.

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 30 May 2008, 1:09 pm

I do not agree with this theory of "copyist making a mistake", this is just like forcing 2+2=5. Please do remember, all the copyists worked under Prophets and High Priests and Holy Spirit was their guide. I cannot believe that Holy Spirit did not guide them properly. Moreover, they took great care in copying the text. There is no such proof of copyist making mistakes, it is just trying to prove by accepting that Bible is corrupt and with error and I simply do not agree with so called Apologetics, they are just misleading others.

God bless you and your family

dove Thu 05 Jun 2008, 9:04 pm

I agree with you Daniel because the article posted on http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/604 makes no sense at all and the writer is trying to force us believe that what he is saying is correct. It also does not seem logical that copyist under the Holy Spirit would make such a grave mistake. How can someone copy 7 by mistake instead of 3? It is a far fetched idead and makes no sense. It seems that the copyist always mistook 3 for 7.

Crispus Thu 12 Jun 2008, 3:43 pm

To say that the Holy Spirit didn't allow copyist errors and either omissions or deletions is a statement from ignorance or an unwillingness to accept the facts. Here are two more examples:

Some KJV only advocates question 2 Samuel 21:19 in modern translations. In the King James it says "....where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of] Goliath the Gittite..." (blueletterbible.org). The Hebrew word for brother is not in the masoretic text and an error was made by a scribe. Go to http://www.kjv-only.com/2sam21_19.html for a more detailed look at that issue.

In most translations 1 Thess. 2:7 says "We were gentle among you" though there is stronger manuscript evidence for we were "like children" among you. I read that one scribe wrote 'horses' rather than gentle or children. That error was easily detected and unfortunately not all copyist mistakes are so obvious.

**Waqar Daniel** Thu 12 Jun 2008, 4:58 pm

Crispus wrote:To say that the Holy Spirit didn't allow copyist errors and either omissions or deletions is a statement from ignorance or an unwillingness to accept the facts. Here are two more examples:

Some KJV only advocates question 2 Samuel 21:19 in modern translations. In the King James it says "....where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of Goliath the Gittite..." (blueletterbible.org). The Hebrew word for brother is not in the masoretic text and an error was made by a scribe. Go to http://www.kjv-only.com/2sam21_19.html for a more detailed look at that issue.

It is good to know that you are not ignorant. However, you are talking of choice of words used by a translater and not errors. Translating from old languages into modern languages is a difficult task. One of the reasons is that you are not only translating the words but also the custom and traditions of that era.

I wonder what is the error if in 1 Chronicles 20:5 the scribe wrote brother of Goliath and the scribe of 2 Samuel 21:19 chose to write Goliath? I find no error, will you please, in your wisdom guide us about the error.

God bless you

angel555 Fri 13 Jun 2008, 7:42 pm

Crispus wrote:To say that the Holy Spirit didn't allow copyist errors and either omissions or deletions is a statement from ignorance or an unwillingness to accept the facts. Here are two more examples:

I would repeat Daniel's question, please tell us what is the error because you called us ignorant

**Waqar Daniel** Mon 16 Jun 2008, 12:10 am

I am also too eager to learn from the wisdom of Crispus. Maybe someday he will let us know what is the error between 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicles 20:5. May his wisdom guide us all.

God bless you all

sophie Tue 24 Jun 2008, 5:37 am

See christians blame their holy book themselves of contradictions. I am not saying this but let me put a twist to this discussion. Who Killed Goliath?

David killed (1 Samuel 17:50) - "Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand."

VS

Elhanan did (2 Sam. 21:19)- "And there was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam."

This makes me laugh as to how many Goliaths were there? Did the copyist make a mistake and instead of David wrote Elhanan? Or were there two persons with same name? Any answers? I would go with Crispus

Crispus wrote:To say that the Holy Spirit didn't allow copyist errors and either omissions or deletions is a statement from ignorance or an unwillingness to accept the facts.

He is absolutely right in saying that Bible copyists did indeed make mistakes.

sophie Wed 25 Jun 2008, 4:27 pm

ANYONE?????????????? Laughing

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 25 Jun 2008, 4:57 pm

Sophie I am still here, I wanted some else to answer you because I have to answer your all questions. Anyhow, here is your answer:

Answer # 1 Goliath

Goliath was not a personal name. They were Anakites and were very tall men coming from the region of Gath. In those times, these Goliath would come forward and would attack the strong man of the opposite army. If the strong man lost, the whole army was considered defeated as their morale went down. These strong men used to be wrestlers as we also see in 1 Samuel 17:4

A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of Philistine camp...Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel...Choose a man and have him come down to me. If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects...Give me a man and let us fight each other. (1 Samuel 17:4-11)

Therefore, the article quoted by Crispus, and the author of that the article is ignorant and is basing his ignorance on assumptions. That person does not even know, how the wars were fought in this part of the world in olden times. As the saying goes, blind leading a blind.

Answer # 2 Who killed Goliath - Daivd or Elhanan?

David
Goliath from Gath (1 Samuel 17:4-7, 48-51 ... Nine feet tall. Spear like weaver's rod. 600 shekel spear head)

Elhanan son f Jair
Lahmi brother of Goliath the Gittite (1 Chronicles 20:1 ... Spear like weaver's rod) Goliath the Gittite (2 Samuel 21:19 ... Spear like a weaver's rod)

Jonathan son of Shimea, brother of David
"Huge man" (1 Chronicles 20:6, 2 Samuel 21:20 ... six fingers and six toes)

Abishai son of Zeruiah
Ishbi-Benob (2 Samuel 21:16-17 ... 300 shekel spear head)

Sibbecai the Hushathite
Saph (2 Samuel 21:18)

These are big Philistines who were killed by various people. Therefore you question, who killed Goliath is answered. I still maintain that scribes copyists worked under Holy Spirit, and to say they made a mistake then what kind of God do we serve?

I serve a God who is I make known the end from the beginning from ancient times, what is still to come (Isa 46:10). Therefore, I serve a God whose word (Bible) is perfect and without an error.

Anything else I can do for you?

God bless you all

Irv Everett Wed 25 Jun 2008, 6:33 pm

And David took up his staff in his hand, and chose five smooth stones out of the brook and put them in a shepherd’s bag which he had, even in scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and drew near the Philistine. (1 Samuel 17:40)

1. Goliath of Gath (1 Samuel 17:4 – 7) slew by David (1 Samuel 17:49)

2. Ishbibenob which was of the sons of the giant slew by Abishai the son of Zeruiah (2 Samuel 21:17)

3. Saph which was of the sons of the giant slew by Sibbechia the Hushathite (2 Samuel 21:18)

4. Goliath the Gittite slew by Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim a Bethlehemite (2 Samuel 21:19)

5. A man of great stature and he also was born to the giant slew by Jonathan the son of Shimeah the brother of David (2 Samuel 21:20 – 21)

These four were born to the giant in Gath and fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants. (2 Samuel21:22)

Notice that David picked up five stones. He used the first stone to defeat Goliath; the other four stones represent the battles that he would later face from this giant.

No discrepancy; No one is trying to deceive anyone with the scriptures; the focus of the Bible is clearly on our Salvation!

We are All going to die and we are condemned to Hell by our sin.

God is providing All of us the opportunity to live eternally with Him in Heaven.

You should take this time and opportunity to seek the Kingdom of God and to seek Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

This opportunity will probably mean a great deal more to you if you find yourself burning in the pits of Hell!

I would be glad to share the good news with you; Blessings Irv

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 25 Jun 2008, 7:52 pm

Dear Irv

Thank you for your insight and I confess here that I have learnt a lot from the wisdom and understanding given to you by our Heavenly Father.

God bless you and your family

planet_shakers Fri 27 Jun 2008, 9:48 am

I would "Thank Sophie" for she made me understand many things through her ignorance. I am proud learner of the Bible and YES there are no contradictions in the Bible. The theme of the Bible has never changed and the theme is SALVATION.

God bless