WHY CHRISTMAS SHOULD BE CELEBRATED?

**Waqar Daniel** Tue 10 Dec 2013, 5:36 pm

The Bible not only talks about the "First Coming" of Jesus but also the "Joy and Salvation" it has brought to the world. Let us see who "Rejoiced" on Christmas.

The Angels "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:13-14).
The Shepherds "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:15).
John the Baptist "Rejoiced" in the womb of Elizabeth (Luke 1:41).
Zechariah "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:67-69).
Mary "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:46-55).
Simeon "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:29-32).

If Angels, priest, prophet and common people "Rejoiced" over the birth of Jesus why can't we?

GOD'S LOVE SHOWN IN CHRISTMAS
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

Making foolish excuse(s) not to celebrate Christmas is actually "denying" Heavenly Father's love for us.

WHO CANNOT REJOICE OVER CHRISTMAS?
We read in the Bible that Herod was too unhappy over the birth of Jesus and wanted to kill Jesus. Herod of that time and Herods of this time are all hell bound to deny Christmas and the joy of salvation it brings to the world. Today's Herods allege that Christmas is a pagan ritual and try to stop believers to be joyful over the birth of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.

NOTHING IS PAGAN ABOUT CHRISTMAS
"If part of a batch of dough is made holy by offered to God, then all of the dough is holy. If the roots of a tree is holy, the rest of the tree is holy tree." (Romans 11:16)

MEANING OF CHRISTMAS
"He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth," (Luke 1:14)

SO WHAT IS CHRISTMAS?
Christmas is a "Joy" and "Delight" to us and many who believe in Christmas. So next time if anyone tells you not to celebrate Christmas then do remember Herod.

May Heavenly Father bless you with understanding, knowledge and wisdom to distinguish between "Grace" and "Herod", in Jesus name. AMEN.

TomL Wed 11 Dec 2013, 5:50 pm

Great question. Why should Christmas be celebrated?

There is nothing in Scripture about it. Nowhere is it written that Jesus celebrated his birth. Nowhere is it written that the apostles celebrated the birth of Christ. Nowhere is it written that the 1st century Christians celebrated the birth of Christ.

No one in the Bible ever wished anyone a merry Christmas. Santa Claus did not go down the chimney at the manger.

It's plain the celebration of the birth of Christ, or this thing called Christmas did not come from the Bible.

Christ never inserted himself in Christmas. That was done by the Roman Catholic Church.

Christ and the apostles are the foundation of Christianity. They had nothing to do with Christmas, so why should we?

I guess it depends if people care about what the Bible teaches, or what has become religious tradition. As for me, I care what the Bible teaches. And nowhere does the Bible authorize Christmas, which is nothing but a shortened version of "Christ mass." Sounds kinda Catholic, don't it?

clark thompson Thu 12 Dec 2013, 2:08 am

We should remeber Jesus' coming everyday.

**Waqar Daniel** Thu 12 Dec 2013, 8:52 am

Dear Tom thank you for joining CHRISTIAN TALK and thank you that you found it interesting.

To start with

TonyL wrote:No one in the Bible ever wished anyone a merry Christmas. Santa Claus did not go down the chimney at the manger.

The word "Bible" in it self not mentioned in the scriptures - so shall we deny Bible as the title of Word of God?

Secondly I gave you references from the Bible that;

The Angels "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:13-14).
The Shepherds "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:15).
John the Baptist "Rejoiced" in the womb of Elizabeth (Luke 1:41).
Zechariah "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:67-69).
Mary "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:46-55).
Simeon "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:29-32).

What to talk of humans, Angels were there to Rejoice over the birth of Jesus. One fact is there that Jews never celebrated birthdays however, two Gospels record birth of Jesus. I wonder why - Just to show Jesus' lineage?

I have seen Christians celebrating "Hannukah" and stress that we should celebrate Hannukah instead of Christmas. Isn't Hannukah unscriptual?

I believe that Jews and many others discredit the "First Coming" of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.

Is there any thing wrong/pagan in dedicating "One Day" as Jesus' birthday?

My Questions

Don't Roman Catholic believe in Jesus as Son of God - so should we reject Jesus as Son of God because Roman Catholics also believe so?
Don't Roman Catholics believe in Bible as Word of God - shall we say that Bible is not Word of God because Roman Catholics believe so?
Roman Catholics believe that Jesus dies on the cross and was resurrected - so should we deny on the logic that Roman Catholics believe so?
Roman Catholics believe that God created the universe and whatever there is in it - so should we deny because of Roman Catholics?

To sum up I would like to quote a verse from the Bible

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." (Romans 14:5-6)

God bless you

TomL Thu 12 Dec 2013, 12:35 pm

clark thompson wrote:We should remeber Jesus' coming everyday.

If you are talking about his birth, why? Where does the Scripture say that?

TomL Thu 12 Dec 2013, 1:03 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Dear Tom thank you for joining CHRISTIAN TALK and thank you that you found it interesting.

To start with
TonyL wrote:No one in the Bible ever wished anyone a merry Christmas. Santa Claus did not go down the chimney at the manger.
The word "Bible" in it self not mentioned in the scriptures - so shall we deny Bible as the title of Word of God?

Secondly I gave you references from the Bible that;

The Angels "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:13-14).
The Shepherds "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:15).
John the Baptist "Rejoiced" in the womb of Elizabeth (Luke 1:41).
Zechariah "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:67-69).
Mary "Rejoiced" (Luke 1:46-55).
Simeon "Rejoiced" (Luke 2:29-32).

In your list here, there is not one mention of Santa Claus, reindeer, holly wreaths, mistletoe, egg nog, etc. All we have in that list are those who rejoiced that Jesus was either going to be born, or was born.

I have studied this subject far more than any other subject, although Bible Prophecy is coming up there. I have written extensively about Christmas, including a small online book called "CHRISTMAS: Catholic by Name, Pagan by Practice." In all that I have written, including what I have written here, I never once condemned the idea of rejoicing that Christ was born, although, like Handel's Messiah, all things about Christ should be rejoiced.

What I have a problem with is mixing the birth of Christ with paganism, which is what Christmas does. In fact, Christmas is nothing but Catholicized paganism, and if you did the research, you would see that. It goes against what is written in II Corinthians 6.14-18. It is not pleasing to God to worship him in the way others worship their gods. That is what the Golden Calf was all about. God is no more pleased with that today as he was back then.

What to talk of humans, Angels were there to Rejoice over the birth of Jesus. One fact is there that Jews never celebrated birthdays however, two Gospels record birth of Jesus. I wonder why - Just to show Jesus' lineage?

I have seen Christians celebrating "Hannukah" and stress that we should celebrate Hannukah instead of Christmas. Isn't Hannukah unscriptual?

I believe that Jews and many others discredit the "First Coming" of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.

Is there any thing wrong/pagan in dedicating "One Day" as Jesus' birthday?

[b]My Questions[/]

Don't Roman Catholic believe in Jesus as Son of God - so should we reject Jesus as Son of God because Roman Catholics also believe so?
Don't Roman Catholics believe in Bible as Word of God - shall we say that Bible is not Word of God because Roman Catholics believe so?
Roman Catholics believe that Jesus dies on the cross and was resurrected - so should we deny on the logic that Roman Catholics believe so?
Roman Catholics believe that God created the universe and whatever there is in it - so should we deny because of Roman Catholics?

To sum up I would like to quote a verse from the Bible
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks." (Romans 14:5-6)

God bless you

I pretty much stated my case above.

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 14 Dec 2013, 6:41 am

Dear Tony, thank you for your reply. However, what I do not believe in I do not mention. We are not dedicating December 25 to some pagan god but it is dedicated to Son of God - So what is pagan in it?

Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Palms 30:4)

Therefore, on Christmas Day we sing praises and thank God for His great mercy and that is Jesus Christ.

You have quoted 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is Warning against Idolatry and I do not think it relates to celebration of Christmas or any festivity.

God bless you

TomL Sat 14 Dec 2013, 8:43 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Dear Tony, thank you for your reply. However, what I do not believe in I do not mention. We are not dedicating December 25 to some pagan god but it is dedicated to Son of God - So what is pagan in it?
Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name. (Palms 30:4)
Therefore, on Christmas Day we sing praises and thank God for His great mercy and that is Jesus Christ.

You have quoted 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 is Warning against Idolatry and I do not think it relates to celebration of Christmas or any festivity.

God bless you

My name is not Tony. Where does Scripture say anything about dedicating Dec. 25 to God? The whole thing is pagan. Have you studied where Christmas comes from? It sure doesn't come from Scripture.

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 14 Dec 2013, 5:51 pm

Sorry I guess your name is Tom, my apologies for calling you Tony. I ask you where does it say not to celebrate birth of Jesus? I have read all myths about Christmas. I do not believe in such myths as everyone pagan god(s) is supposed to be born on December 25 and this is really rubbish.

Why I call this rubbish because none of the pagans were using Gregorian calendar. Most of them were using Lunar calendars and Romans were using Julian calendar. Therefore, I am not dumb enough to connect every foolish myth with Christmas.

If celebrating Jesus' birth is unscriptual then why His birth is recorded in the Bible? Why it is said in the Bible

"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. (Luke 1:14)

Sorry if you cannot rejoice on the birth of Jesus.

God bless you

**fennywest** Sat 14 Dec 2013, 6:37 pm

Whereas I am all for using the reason for the reason to point people to Jesus and the cross and lead them to salvation, following the world to indulge in a season of greed, drunkenness, indebtedness is surely not our calling.
This is a time when people claim to celebrate the birth of Jesus and yet many would not want the 'Birthday Boy' into His party. Mention Jesus in most of the razzmatazz and you will be considered a party pooper.
I recall the story of Moody who was invited to a party and he asked them, 'Can I bring my friend? And they asked him what is his name? He told them, Jesus.
The reply was, 'I don't think He would enjoy it.'
Moody politely told them,' then I wouldn't enjoy it either.'
What would Jesus do in this season? What is the priority on God's agenda. If all we do is wine and dine then we have missed the mark, in my opinion.

Offer to take Jesus to most of the worldly celebrations and you would see the curious looks on most faces. That says it all. We are in this world but not of this world. We are called to be different. 'Come out from among them.' 'You are in this world but not of the world.'

Those Who Run the Race of Grace

Those who run the Race of Grace

Will not run the Christmas rat-race

They will maintain their focus

Rather than give gifts, they give Jesus.

Those who run the race of Grace

In All they do Always seek His face

They ensure they within the Word

Even though they are in the world.

They know full well they are not of this world

They know that His word is His will and His will is His word

They know God’s good, acceptable and perfect will
That is their joy, pleasure, craving and even their fill.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Rom12:2

¹⁴I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. John17:14,16

Do Not Love the World

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world --- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life --- is not of the Father but is of the world.

And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

1John2:15-17

©Fenny West

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 14 Dec 2013, 7:05 pm

Dear Fenny thank you for your input. I agree with you on partying issue. However, my point is

"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. (Luke 1:14)

We rejoice for the God promise, we are glad that God fulfilled His promise and we rejoice that our Savior is real and not some mythical figure like other so-called saviors.

God bless you

TomL Sun 15 Dec 2013, 11:45 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:
Sorry I guess your name is Tom, my apologies for calling you Tony. I ask you where does it say not to celebrate birth of Jesus? I have read all myths about Christmas. I do not believe in such myths as everyone pagan god(s) is supposed to be born on December 25 and this is really rubbish.

Why I call this rubbish because none of the pagans were using Gregorian calendar. Most of them were using Lunar calendars and Romans were using Julian calendar. Therefore, I am not dumb enough to connect every foolish myth with Christmas.

If celebrating Jesus' birth is unscriptual then why His birth is recorded in the Bible? Why it is said in the Bible
"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. (Luke 1:14)
Sorry if you cannot rejoice on the birth of Jesus.

God bless you

Why do I bother saying anything? You obviously are not reading it, or not understanding it.

You show me one place where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ.

What I am saying is that it is wrong to mix the birth of Christ with paganism, which is what Christmas does.

Here, try it again...

I have studied this subject far more than any other subject, although Bible Prophecy is coming up there. I have written extensively about Christmas, including a small online book called "CHRISTMAS: Catholic by Name, Pagan by Practice." In all that I have written, including what I have written here, I never once condemned the idea of rejoicing that Christ was born, although, like Handel's Messiah, all things about Christ should be rejoiced.

What I have a problem with is mixing the birth of Christ with paganism, which is what Christmas does. In fact, Christmas is nothing but Catholicized paganism, and if you did the research, you would see that. It goes against what is written in II Corinthians 6.14-18. It is not pleasing to God to worship him in the way others worship their gods. That is what the Golden Calf was all about. God is no more pleased with that today as he was back then.

**Waqar Daniel** Mon 16 Dec 2013, 6:23 am

TomL wrote:You show me one place where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ.

TomL wrote:Where does Scripture say anything about dedicating Dec. 25 to God?

TomL wrote:There is nothing in Scripture about it. Nowhere is it written that Jesus celebrated his birth. Nowhere is it written that the apostles celebrated the birth of Christ. Nowhere is it written that the 1st century Christians celebrated the birth of Christ.

TomL wrote:It's plain the celebration of the birth of Christ, or this thing called Christmas did not come from the Bible.

TomL wrote:Christ and the apostles are the foundation of Christianity. They had nothing to do with Christmas, so why should we?

TomL wrote:If you are talking about his birth, why? Where does the Scripture say that?

TomL wrote:Where does Scripture say anything about dedicating Dec. 25 to God? The whole thing is pagan.

TomL wrote:Why do I bother saying anything? You obviously are not reading it, or not understanding it.

You show me one place where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ.

What I am saying is that it is wrong to mix the birth of Christ with paganism, which is what Christmas does.

Sir, I do read each and everything that is posted on this forum, whether I comment or do not comment. When did I justify Santa Claus or any other tradition to Christmas, I believe your objection is unfounded.

I quoted from the Bible where John the Baptist rejoiced, Zecharias rejoiced, Elizabeth rejoiced, Mary rejoiced, common people rejoiced and Angels rejoiced on the birth of Jesus. Did I write about Santa Claus or justified Santa Claus? Did I talk of any tradition and upheld any tradition with my own inferior logic? I guess, sir, I did not.

I have quoted your words and I think that you objected to rejoicing in the birth of Christ calling it unscriptual. Please do remember I do not quote any authority or tradition to justify faith.

I believe that Bible is the Word of God and all the questions raised before the time of Christ, at the time of Christ or now or will be raised in the future are all answered in the Bible. The only thing we need to do is to read the Bible with prayer and with unbiased intentions.

God bless you.

TomL Mon 16 Dec 2013, 6:46 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
TomL wrote:You show me one place where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ.
TomL wrote:Where does Scripture say anything about dedicating Dec. 25 to God?
TomL wrote:There is nothing in Scripture about it. Nowhere is it written that Jesus celebrated his birth. Nowhere is it written that the apostles celebrated the birth of Christ. Nowhere is it written that the 1st century Christians celebrated the birth of Christ.
TomL wrote:It's plain the celebration of the birth of Christ, or this thing called Christmas did not come from the Bible.
TomL wrote:Christ and the apostles are the foundation of Christianity. They had nothing to do with Christmas, so why should we?
TomL wrote:If you are talking about his birth, why? Where does the Scripture say that?
TomL wrote:Where does Scripture say anything about dedicating Dec. 25 to God? The whole thing is pagan.
TomL wrote:Why do I bother saying anything? You obviously are not reading it, or not understanding it.

You show me one place where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ.

What I am saying is that it is wrong to mix the birth of Christ with paganism, which is what Christmas does.
Sir, I do read each and everything that is posted on this forum, whether I comment or do not comment. When did I justify Santa Claus or any other tradition to Christmas, I believe your objection is unfounded.

I quoted from the Bible where John the Baptist rejoiced, Zecharias rejoiced, Elizabeth rejoiced, Mary rejoiced, common people rejoiced and Angels rejoiced on the birth of Jesus. Did I write about Santa Claus or justified Santa Claus? Did I talk of any tradition and upheld any tradition with my own inferior logic? I guess, sir, I did not.

I have quoted your words and I think that you objected to rejoicing in the birth of Christ calling it unscriptual. Please do remember I do not quote any authority or tradition to justify faith.

I believe that Bible is the Word of God and all the questions raised before the time of Christ, at the time of Christ or now or will be raised in the future are all answered in the Bible. The only thing we need to do is to read the Bible with prayer and with unbiased intentions.

God bless you.

Okay, you read what I said. You still didn't show me where I said it is wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ. And by the very fact that 2 apostles wrote about it indicates the birth of Christ was important to them. And I certainly is an important event. So important that I do not believe that it is being mixed with paganism, and to give America an economic shot in the arm at the end of the year. However, I was right when I said, "Nowhere is it written that Jesus celebrated his birth. Nowhere is it written that the apostles celebrated the birth of Christ. Nowhere is it written that the 1st century Christians celebrated the birth of Christ." Christmas does not come from the Bible, and you have not showed that it does.

I feel sorry for you. You appear to be aware of the truth, yet you ignore it.

By the way, have you noticed that Israel had snow a few days ago. That should tell you Christ could not have been born on December 25.

clark thompson Mon 16 Dec 2013, 12:57 pm

It is not wrong to rejoice in His birth, the angels even did this.

TomL Mon 16 Dec 2013, 9:31 pm

clark thompson wrote:It is not wrong to rejoice in His birth, the angels even did this.

I never said it's wrong to rejoice about the birth of Christ. What I am saying is that it's wrong to celebrate the birth of Christ in a way the pagans worshipped their gods.

Let me ask you, what do you think about the move to combine Christianity with Islam? It's called Chrislam.

**Waqar Daniel** Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:17 am

TomL wrote:Let me ask you, what do you think about the move to combine Christianity with Islam? It's called Chrislam.

Kindly explain how this can be possible?

I read one of your articles on your website The Bible Wasn't Written To Or About Us and it was quite interesting. For the readers of this discussion, I am posting it here.

Yep, you read it right. No one living today were alive when the Bible was written. So, how can we claim the Bible was written to or about us?

The focus of the first five books of the Bible is the establishment of Israel.

Then the focus of Joshua through Esther is the history of Israel.

The book of Job, oddly enough, was about Job.

The main focus of Psalms is worshipping Jehovah God.

Proverbs & Ecclesiastes is about Wisdom.

Song of Solomon is about relationships between a man and a woman, but ultimately the relationship between Jehovah God and his people.

Then Isaiah through Malachi is mainly about God's message to his people, Israel.

Where do we fit in with any of that?

Then we come to the New Testament. First the 4 gospels, and Acts. The main focus there is bringing the good news of the kingdom of Christ to the lost sheep of Israel. It wasn't until Peter visited Cornelius was the gospel given to the Gentiles. And, after Paul's conversion, he ultimately became the apostle unto the Gentiles.

Now we come to the writings of Paul. They are obviously not written to anyone alive today. Paul was nice enough to address to whom he was writing. The church at Rome, the church at Corinth, etc. He also wrote to Timothy and Titus.

Hebrews is undoubtedly about Christ being revealed to the Hebrews, in their last days.

Now we come to what is called "the General epistles, or letters." James, John, Peter and Jude wrote the church of their time. Remember, from Romans to Jude, these were letters written to people of that time, not to us.

And, finally, the book of Revelation was plainly written to 7 churches of Asia. It was not written to or about anyone today.

The conclusion of the matter is this. The Bible is a collection of historical writings, none of which were written to anyone today. And you must understand the Bible in that way. If you don't. then you will probably apply things to today that are not meant for today. And, it will be all wrong.

So, all the preachers that are preaching the Bible as if it was written for today, are preaching false doctrine. You must understand the Bible within it's historical settings. Many make the mistake of not doing that.

Yet in an other amazing article you deny what you believe in. The article Understaning The Bible

Further, I can't see how someone can be a Christian when they seek to destroy the Word by which they claim to have become a Christian in the first place. When one seeks to destroy the Word of God, they are on a very dangerous path, and I urge those who do this to repent before it is eternally too late.

My point here is that at one point you deny the importance of Bible in our present and future lives and on the other hand you are asking me if celebrating Christmas is scriptual? Don't you think your discussion here is confusing?

God bless you.

TomL Wed 18 Dec 2013, 9:59 pm

I have a difficult time responding when people take my comments out of context, however, it is understandable since that is probably the way you read the Bible.

Are you up to date on current events. There are several religious leaders in America try to bridge a gap between Christianity and Islam. The name of this new religion is Chrislam. Look it up.

One of the religious leaders that is working for this is Rick Warren. You can do a search on that too.

The reason I asked the question is that is how we got Christmas and Easter. That's why I call it Catholicized paganism.

You quoted my article, "The Bible Wasn't Written To Or About Us." Then you quoted another article out of context to make it seem like I am being inconsistent. The first article was about who the Bible was written to. The second article was in response to some false teachings that came out about creation. It's not that long, so here it is...

How can you possibly understand the Bible if you keep reading things that are not there? For example, the claim that creation took 6,000 years. This is derived by mixing a Scripture out of context that a thousand years is as one day to God. That same Scripture states that a day is like a thousand years to God. However that Scripture in 2 Peter 3.8 has nothing to do with creation.

Others claim that Genesis 1 has nothing to do with the literal creation of the physical universe, but rather the creation of a covenant. Others claim that all will be saved regardless of whether or not they believe in Christ. So you can reject Christ and still be saved and inherit eternal life. This denies many Scriptures that say otherwise.

From the beginning of humanity, Satan has been trying to destroy the Word/Law of God. And even though, Satan is powerless today, man is carried away by his own desires. Desires that agree with Satan that "you shall not surely die." Just as there were consequences for Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God, there are consequences for those that disobey God today. One of those consequences is not inheriting eternal life. Eternal life is in Christ. Those not in Christ will not enter eternal life. Scripture is clear, Christ is the way, truth and life, no one comes to the Father but through Christ.

So often people go beyond what is written in the Bible to understand the Bible. It can't be done. I am not talking about using outside sources, like history, to confirm what the Bible says. For example, Jesus said the temple would be destroyed. History records that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. So this prophecy of Jesus has been fulfilled. Confirming the Word by historical evidence is one thing. Changing the Word by any means is another.

When one uses extra-biblical means to change what is already written, they must deny what is already written, and makes what is already written null and void. And there are Scriptural warnings about doing such things.

Further, I can't see how someone can be a Christian when they seek to destroy the Word by which they claim to have become a Christian in the first place. When one seeks to destroy the Word of God, they are on a very dangerous path, and I urge those who do this to repent before it is eternally too late.

I have italicized the portion you quoted. As anyone can see they are contextually different articles.

I did not, as you said, "deny the importance of Bible.' I would never do that. My point is that the Bible is a compilation of historical writings. You must understand the Bible within it's historicity, or you will get it wrong.

The covenant of Christ is an everlasting covenant, therefore it has no end. And we are in the age of His everlasting covenant. And that everlasting covenant is certainly applicable to today. But, nothing in the Bible was specifically written to or about anyone today. But, principles of the everlasting covenant certainly can be applied today.

Let me give you an example. When Paul said, "Oh you foolish Galatians..." Obviously, Paul's statement was specifically addressed to the Galatian churches of his time. But, what did he teach the Galatians? Did he not teach them not to go back to the Law? We can certainly learn from that, that in this day there is no need to get back to Law, as some are trying to do today.

There other things that Paul said that I am not sure if it can be applied to today, at least not the way he said them, such as, "Greet one another with holy kiss." I'm sorry, if I ever meet you in person, you will not get a kiss from me. You might get a holy handshake. That was a cultural statement of where and when Paul was speaking, or writing.

There are eternal principles that can be applied to today. There are those things that were specific to the people that were being spoken or written to. Unless we can derive an eternal principle form those things written or spoken back then, it is improper to make application to today.

**Waqar Daniel** Tue 24 Dec 2013, 3:00 pm

TomL wrote:I have italicized the portion you quoted. As anyone can see they are contextually different articles.

Where did I say they are contextually in-line? I wrote this

My point here is that at one point you deny the importance of Bible in our present and future lives and on the other hand you are asking me if celebrating Christmas is scriptural? Don't you think your discussion here is confusing?

As I said before you are confused and now trying to confuse with vague logic.

Secondly, you are unaware of history. Bridging gap between Christianity and Islam is centuries old and it failed. It was tried by Great King Akbar of India who ruled India from 1556 to 1605. He called this so-called bridging gap between Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism and Zoroastrianism "Din-e-Ilahi" or Religion of God. Finally this resulted in Sikhism.

Your logic of bridging gap between Christianity and Islam is illogical. It makes no difference who is trying to bridge gap and the question is can it be done??? Haven't you read that Satan quoted Bible to Jesus - Did the use of Words of God bridged the gap between Satan and God?

I am again quoting a very interesting article of yours titled Where Was God?

In the Prayer forum, on another site, there is a request for Jessica Ridgeway. If you follow the news, I'm sure you heard what happened to her. One poster posted, "Evidently God was busy elsewhere." I responded to that poster, and now I ask you.

Have you ever wondered where God was when little girls are molested then hacked to pieces? I do, and I told God off today. There is no reason, with all his power why he can't stop things like this from happening. What kind of God allows these things happen?

What does Scripture say? Why does God allow these things?

I can understand many things. Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, volcanoes, tsunamis. They are all an act of God, and only He knows His motive. I can understand war, eventhough I don't like it. I can understand murder in a fit of rage. I can understand suicide. I can understand the causes of many things. But not this. What gets into a human being to molest a little girl and then kill and dismember her. I can't understand that. And it really bothers me that God allows this type of thing.

Do you, my friends, have anything from the Bible that addresses this?

Perhaps it's time we wake up our God and tell him this is just plain unacceptable.

Surely you understand nothing.

God bless you

TomL Wed 25 Dec 2013, 3:42 am

Daniel, I was having a tough time when I wrote that. And I was sharing my inner conflict. Have you never had an inner conflict? That has nothing to do with this topic.

It comes down to this. What is Christianity based on, the New Testament, or man-made doctrines and traditions? Christmas does not come out of the Bible anywhere.

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 25 Dec 2013, 2:05 pm

TomL wrote:It comes down to this. What is Christianity based on, the New Testament, or man-made doctrines and traditions?

Let me ask you

Is the title Bible given to Holy Scriptures man given or God given?
Is division of Bible into Old Testament and New Testament man given or God given?
Isn't canonization of the entire Bible man made canonization?

Now addressing your question

TomL wrote:Christmas does not come out of the Bible anywhere.

Christmas word is not in the Bible and there is no denial or debate to it. However, the concept is very much there in the Bible.

Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,...(Luke 3:23)

How did Luke calculate Jesus' age? Is it through Jesus' birth date or through guess work? I believe that Jesus' age is written in accordance to

“Take a census of the Kohathite branch of the Levites by their clans and families. Count all the men from thirty to fifty years of age who come to serve in the work at the tent of meeting. (Numbers 4:2-3)

What do you say?

“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” (Mathew 2:2)

Did Magis come to celebrate birth of Jesus? I know Jesus was not baby at that time so this is not point of discussion here.

When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mathew 2:16)

If Magis were wrong about the Time i.e. day + month + year of Jesus' birthday then why did King Herod order to kill male boys of age 2 and under?

How can Luke, Magis and King Herod talk of Jesus' age if they knew nothing about Jesus' birth date? I think they never asked pseudo modern day scholars. If Luke, Magis and Herod would have asked pseudo modern day scholars I believe many children of 2 or under would have not died.

TomL wrote:Daniel, I was having a tough time when I wrote that. And I was sharing my inner conflict. Have you never had an inner conflict? That has nothing to do with this topic.

Why should I have inner conflict? I have inner peace because my hope and trust is in my LORD and Savior Jesus Christ in all circumstances. Secondly, to have inner conflict you have to turn against God and question Him.

I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. (Psalms 139:14)

The article titled Where Was God? written by you that I quoted in my last post was to show the confusion and understanding you have about the scriptures.

God bless you.

TomL Sat 28 Dec 2013, 3:58 pm

I get the feeling that discussing this here is a complete waste of time.

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 28 Dec 2013, 5:35 pm

The topic is closed for further discussion.

TomL Sun 29 Dec 2013, 5:01 am

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