If you cannot love an eternal torment god

rodgertutt Tue 05 Aug 2008, 7:28 pm

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language. This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

This next URL sums up the end result of all three

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering. What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html

http://www.christianuniversalist.org

Also see

Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)

and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of ttp://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.

Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.

He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

**Waqar Daniel** Tue 05 Aug 2008, 9:13 pm

Thank you for joining CHRISTIAN TALK and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Here is an article that might interest you Wages of Sin is Death

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

Salvation is for everyone and God has done His part and now we have to do ours and that is to receive Salvation and leave our old sinful life and live in Christ and let Christ live in us.

God bless you and your family

rodgertutt Tue 05 Aug 2008, 11:00 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:Thank you for joining CHRISTIAN TALK and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Here is an article that might interest you Wages of Sin is Death
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)
Salvation is for everyone and God has done His part and now we have to do ours and that is to receive Salvation and leave our old sinful life and live in Christ and let Christ live in us.

God bless you and your family

I read THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. Here is what I believe instead.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath-new.html

SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

According to the Bible everyone is going to heaven - some through the fire, but all through the blood.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"

There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28.
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 06 Aug 2008, 1:35 am

You are quoting people here and you have no solid verse from the Bible to support your theory. If I believe in what you say then I am free to rape, to kill and to do all wickedness and I will be with God in heavens. This is a foolish and satanic thought and has no logic and ground because the Bible says

There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes,
seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying
tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises
wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who
utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers .(Prov
6.16)

God bless you and your family

rodgertutt Wed 06 Aug 2008, 1:52 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:You are quoting people here and you have no solid verse from the Bible to support your theory. If I believe in what you say then I am free to rape, to kill and to do all wickedness and I will be with God in heavens. This is a foolish and satanic thought and has no logic and ground because the Bible says
There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes,
seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying
tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises
wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who
utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers .(Prov
6.16)
God bless you and your family

Not to worry. No unrepentant evil doer will escape puishment. But the punishment will always be limited in duration, and corrective in nature. The Bible calls it "kolasis aonian" (age-during corrective chastisement). God know exactly how much "kolasis aonian' each unrepentant sinner will need.

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
Read the contents of the third subtitle from the top called THE LAKE OF FIRE

THE BIBLE TRUTH ABOUT “HELL”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

People who want to keep believing in the doctrine of "endless hell" will not read the following four articles.

But people who don't want to believe that the Bible teaches "endless hell" will read all four of them and will be filled with great joy at finding out the truth!

(If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your address bar.)

What Jesus really taught about "hell."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

What the Bible really teaches about "hell."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 06 Aug 2008, 10:37 am

rodgertutt wrote:Not to worry. No unrepentant evil doer will
escape puishment. But the punishment will always be limited in
duration, and corrective in nature. The Bible calls it "kolasis aonian"
(age-during corrective chastisement). God know exactly how much
"kolasis aonian' each unrepentant sinner will need.

Your preaching reminds me of an incident where similar deceptive preaching led to the fall of man. Now please read the following verse

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis (3:1-4)

Serpent preached the same thing using deception as a tool You will not die what you are preaching to us. What happened next? Serpent was proved to be a liar and the man surely died. Aren't you preaching the same deception?

Do you think that what people say will change the Word of God and what is written in it? Are you more sensible than Jesus Christ when He said

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: (Mark 3:28-29)

Jesus said eternal damnation and did not say that a person will be punished for sometime. God never spoke in mysteries that we cannot understand, He made everything very clear

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:18-20)

Therefore, when we sin, we cannot make excuses like God will forgive all in the end. Why we cannot make such excuse, because this preaching is from satan and not from God. God has clearly spoken in the Bible that all sins have consequences and no sin will go unpunished if not repented.

You keep your preaching to yourself because we all here believe what the Bible says and we do not believe in what people or websites say because

let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (Romans 3:4-8)

God bless you and your family

ChristianLady Wed 06 Aug 2008, 10:52 am

I have one question for you rodgertutt, if you are true then why did God command us I am God Almighty; waalk before me and be blameless (Genesis 17:1)?

What does this verse mean The Lord examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence His soul hates (Ps 11:5)?

Why does God command us to repent of our sins if everyone will be forgiven after a time? Don't you think that it is a joke? Peter replied, Repent and be baptized everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (ACTS 2:38)

I will believe what Jesus has commanded us to do because I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come (Isa 46:10)

And in the last There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers .(Prov 6.16) Are you trying to say that all this is a joke?

God cannot change because I the Lord do not change...(Malachi 3:6). Stop reading and quoting websites, pray to God before reading Bible so that your eyes may be opened to the truth. I cannot say of other but certainly I would not be like Eve and let you deceive me.

Have a blessed day

FaithfulSon Wed 06 Aug 2008, 10:57 am

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? (James 4:4-5)

Brother you are so deceived by satan and I pray for your soul.

dove Wed 06 Aug 2008, 11:01 am

Did Paul lie here in this verse?

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Why do you follow people instead of following the Word of God? It is so simple, if you follow God and His commands you end up in heaven and if you follow satan, you end up with satan in hell. I do not need change the words to prove my sinful life justified, it can only be justified in Jesus.

rodgertutt Wed 06 Aug 2008, 11:09 am

dove wrote:Did Paul lie here in this verse?
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)
Why do you follow people instead of following the Word of God? It is so simple, if you follow God and His commands you end up in heaven and if you follow satan, you end up with satan in hell. I do not need change the words to prove my sinful life justified, it can only be justified in Jesus.

Find out what the Word of God really says about it. Copy and paste into Google

UNIVERSALAISM IS NOT IN THE BIBLE?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE SALVATION OF SATAN ETCETERA

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.
Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries.
Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/reconciliation-heavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 06 Aug 2008, 2:23 pm

rodgertutt wrote:Find out what the Word of God really says about it. Copy and paste into Google

Is Google the Word of God? Why should we search on Google when everything is in the Bible.

rodgertutt wrote:A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.

Do not misquote the Bible. You are twisting the verses and misquoting them, where does it say what you have quoted in Romans 16:20, rather the whole context is For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I rejoice therefore over you: but I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple unto that which is evil. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Timothy my fellow–worker saluteth you; and Lucius and Jason and Sosipater, my kinsmen. I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord. So Paul was commending the faith and their support in preaching and helping in preaching the Gospel. Paul commended Phoebe (servant of the church that is at Cenchreae), Prisca and Aquila, Epaenetus, Mary, Andronicus and Junias, Ampliatus, Urbanus, Stachys, Apelles, Herodion, Tryphaena and Tryphosa, Persis, Rufus and his mother, Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas. Paul commended them and encouraged them that satan will be under their feet. Where does it say A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet? This is all lies and deception that you are using to mislead others.

rodgertutt wrote:C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

If C.S. Lewis said this then he misled the people and moreover, he is no authority. I believe that as you misquote Bible, you must have misquted C.S. Lewis.

I believe that you have written this article before on this forum. Again do not quote websites and people, quote Bible in your support. But how can you quote Bible? You are deceived by satan and trying to deceive others too. There is not a single verse in the Bible that can support your false preaching and teaching. Isn't this a proof that you are deceived and are leading others to falsehood using deception.

You could not explain any verses I quoted, you could not even deny the deception used by satan in Genesis, you could not even deny the fact that you are doing the same.

I know that your answer will again come in the form of google search and what the websites are quoting. Even in the time of Apostles there were no websites but there were souls like you whom all the Apostles condemned and called them liars and false preachers.

God bless you and have mercy on your soul

rodgertutt Wed 06 Aug 2008, 2:37 pm

My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page at

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

Also see the testimonies at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm

Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.

I'm 69, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 because of my inability to love an endless-hell god.

If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines.

Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.

I have exhaustively studied both sides myself. This debate always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.
If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.

Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me. IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.
Here are several Concordant websites.

http://www.concordant.org/

http://www.saviourofall.org/

http://gtft.org/

http://www.tentmaker.org/

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

I also would like to leave you with one more link. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

It may begin to change your thinking.

The url of my own site is

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

God bless you in your study!

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

**Waqar Daniel** Wed 06 Aug 2008, 2:48 pm

rodgertutt wrote:My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page at

Your testimony we all read in Genesis, where a similar testimony was given by satan You shall not die.

rodgertutt wrote:I'm 69, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

You are in that part of the age where you should earnestly seek forgiveness from God. We are not here to accommodate blasphemer and the people who hate God. we are here to do God's will and God's will is

Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18)

If anyone hates God then it is his or her will to do so. We are more interested in what we say than what God says.

Your lame excuse for false preaching is pathetic as your preaching is. Look up for verses in the Bible or your favorite google for false preaching and how God curses them.

God bless you and your family

rodgertutt Thu 23 Oct 2008, 8:14 pm

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

Or

ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
What About Annihilation of the Wicked?
http://www.christian-universalism.com/faq/annihilation.html

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78. I'm 69

I could have avoided a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 if I knew as a youth the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Common Fri 24 Oct 2008, 2:24 am

I completely agree with you Rodgertutt.

Don't worry if they call you names. God is using and leading you.

Blessings.

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 9:46 am

Let me ask both of you one question?

Why do I have to obey God if the punishment is not permanent? Why should not I enjoy like others do - have sex, have female partners, lie, steal and blaspheme? After all, what will I lose, no punishment, so why not to live a worldly life?

Don't just quote websites, quote verses to prove what you are saying is true. And Common, God does not lead to contradictions. So prove from verses and not by assuming on your own or by quoting websites.

Rodgertutt you are repeating same thing again and again and you ran out of proofs. I do not understand why did you wrote same thing again and again.

God bless you all

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 12:23 pm

Why not deliberately disobey God and sin with careless abandonment if we are going to be saved anyway?

First and foremost because we love Jesus and want to please Him every moment of every day. And when God's Spirit faithfully shows us when we are not pleasing Him we are deeply grieved and repent and receive the cleansing that His blood provides.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it.

Matthew 25:46 is the only scripture I need to quote. This "kolais aionain" (age- during corrective chastisement) will be experience by everyone who needs it including you and me. It's intensity and duration will be decided by God but its end result will cause the unrepentant sinner to reach out for the salvation that Christ has purchased for all fallen creatures.

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 1:24 pm

I do not need explanation of what God's love is. I asked simple question and in simple English:

Why should I obey God if I will die permanently

Whether it is knowingly rebelling against God, what difference does it make if I will die and I will be no more.

Please correct me:

rodgetutt wrote:Matthew 25:46 is the only scripture I need to quote. This "kolais aionain" (age- during corrective chastisement) will be experience by everyone who needs it including you and me. It's intensity and duration will be decided by God but its end result will cause the unrepentant sinner to reach out for the salvation that Christ has purchased for all fallen creatures.

You mean all the rapists, blasphemers, sexually immoral, all evil-doers will be saved??? Strange never read in the Bible.

Common do you still call it true preaching???

God bless you

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 2:13 pm

First of all it is a "red herring" to say we should only use our own words when debating. We are all the product of everything we have learned from others.

Waqar Daniel wrote:I do not need explanation of what God's love is. I asked simple question and in simple English: Why should I obey God if I will die permanently?
Whether it is knowingly rebelling against God, what difference does it make if I will die and I will be no more? Please correct me:

Here is why we believe in Christian Biblical Universalism rather than annihilation. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

rodgetutt wrote: Matthew 25:46 is the only scripture I need to quote. This "kolais aionain" (age- during corrective chastisement) will be experience by everyone who needs it including you and me. It's intensity and duration will be decided by God but its end result will cause the unrepentant sinner to reach out for the salvation that Christ has purchased for all fallen creatures.

You mean all the rapists, blasphemers, sexually immoral, all evil-doers will be saved???

Yes, that's what I mean. In fact even I will be saved. Isn't that amazing?

Strange never read in the Bible.

Yes you did. It's Matthew 25:46

Common do you still call it true preaching???

It's preaching that manifests, and glorifies, and magnifies the true character of God in a way that no other preaching can. J. Preston Eby expresses it better than I can at

Click on Why Teach Salvation For All? at the following link
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-saved.htm

God bless you

He does, every moment of every day!

Common Fri 24 Oct 2008, 7:31 pm

Why should you obey God?

Because God is the only way. By accepting Christ, you accept eternal life and his salvation.

On the other hand, the wicked don't. So THEY DON'T GET ETERNAL LIFE.

You get it? Eternal life is for the righteous, not the wicked bro.

God bless you.

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 7:34 pm

Both of you avoided my question. Common you agree with rodgertutt and only verse from the Bible is suffice to prove that both of you are absolutely wrong:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

God spoke through Paul through Holy Spirit. The verse clearly says, that unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So where is your philosophy here???

Let me also correct you because you misquoted Mathew 25:40. The context talks of righteous and unrighteous:

Then will two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord cometh.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house knew in what watch the thief would come, he would watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say to you, that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And will cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Why do you misquote Bible? Why do you deceive others? When Jesus said that there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, how can you challenge His words. And how can you say that Hell is temporary when Paul through Holy Spirit said, unrighteous shall not inherit Kingdom of God? How can you add to the words of the Bible?

If you want to discuss this then answer my question first:

Answer these two questions:

Why should I obey God when I will be forgiven in the end?
If God will forgive unrighteous then how can God be a Just God

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 7:40 pm

Dear Common

I know that if we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and obey His commands we have an everlasting life. Now what will happen to those who reject Jesus? Do you think that it is joke, that all the people who have shed blood, raped, had sexual relations, did all abominable things will just die and they will receive no punishment? So strange - how can you call God then Just?

I agree eternal life is for the believers and eternal torment is for the people who reject Jesus. CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE THING???

Tell this to your friend with whom are you agreeing to, because he believes that in the end everyone will be saved and he calls it corrective chastisement;

rodgertutt wrote:Matthew 25:46 is the only scripture I need to quote. This "kolais
aionain" (age- during corrective chastisement) will be experience by
everyone who needs it including you and me. It's intensity and duration
will be decided by God but its end result will cause the unrepentant
sinner to reach out for the salvation that Christ has purchased for all
fallen creatures.

God bless you all

Common Fri 24 Oct 2008, 7:43 pm

There seems to be a misunderstanding. I know that the wicked will not inherit eternal life. The wicked will not inherit the kingdom in the end. I am not saying that. If Rodgertutt is saying that, I disagree.

This is what I'm saying: The wicked do not have eternal life.

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 7:46 pm

Dear Common

It is better to read first then to comment. Rodgertutt does not believe what you believe in. He believes that in the end everyone will be forgiven.

God bless you

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 8:51 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:Dear Common
It is better to read first then to comment. Rodgertutt does not believe what you believe in. He believes that in the end everyone will be forgiven.
God bless you

The true meaning of “FOREVER AND EVER”

Greek: tormented "for the ages of the ages" a limited period of time referring to the last two ages before God consummates His plan for the ages of time to become All in all 1Cor. 15:28. How do we know that? See further on in this message.

All of these combinations are used in the Bible: aion (singular), aions (plural), aion of the aion (singular/singular), aion of the aions (singular/plural), aions of the aions (plural/plural), and aionian (the adjective).

ALL of them refer to a limited period of time.
For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.

Therefore there is no good argument against God saving all.
See

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

"THE EONS OF THE EONS" (plural/plural) COMPARED WITH "THE HOLIES OF THE HOLIES" (plural/plural)

There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."

Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).

According to the Bible any "hell" will be "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
You can click on the chapters right here to open them up

About the Author
Dedication
Forward
Chapter1 - Definitions of Aion, Aionios
Chapter2 - Usages of Aion
Chapter3 - Opinion of the Scholars
Chapter4 - Apparent Contradictions
Chapter5 - "Forever and Ever" - A Poor Translation
Chapter6 - What Saith The Translations?
Chapter7 - Eonian Means What? - A Search For Truth
Chapter8 - Greek Tools
Chapter9 - Examples in Greek Literature
Chapter10 - Bibles Without "Everlasting Punishment"
Chapter11 - Verses "Proving" Punishment Will be Everlasting
Chapter12 - Scholars Acknowledge Restitution of All
Chapter13 - Punishment? Yes - Everlasting? No
Chapter14 - A Long, But Not Eternal Visit To "Hell"
Chapter15 - The "Chosen," Not "I have chosen"
Chapter16 - Clearing Things Up
Chapter17 - The Complete Revelation
Appendix 1 - Commentary of Previous Presentation
Appendix 2 - Do You Believe ALL in the Bible?
Appendix 3 - Reconciliation Scriptures
Appendix 4 - What Pleases the Father?
Appendix 5 - What if we are Wrong?

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

Irv Everett Fri 24 Oct 2008, 9:45 pm

rogertutt, what a compelling arguement, I thoroughly enjoyed reading from the website you submitted; but I must disagree.
Matthew 7:13-14 says: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it

By reading this scripture you can surely see two clearly defined gates as well as two paths. So now imagine, if you will, a sign and it says; This way to Heaven - Enter Here; but the same sign hangs over both gates. The scripture tell us which gate to enter and which path to follow; we just have to make the right decision.
Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat

Universalism is the doctrine that emphasizes the universal fatherhood of God and the final salvation of all souls. It contends that we are related to God and he will reconcile our debt in the end; in other words, the doctrine that All men will eventually be saved. This doctrine is teaching that through Jesus’ crucifixion, every person who ever lived will ultimately be saved. Correct?

Universalist likes ultimate salvation for all; because of their problems related to eternal Hell. Universalist believes that being condemned to Hell for eternity is a dangerous lie that undermines people’s faith in a loving god. They proclaim the gospel of universal salvation, the good news of hope for all souls through the power of Jesus Christ. Correct?

The question is: what are Universalist hoping for; if their salvation is already guaranteed?

The scriptures emphasize the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction; so if it walks like a duck, have feathers like a duck, and quacks like a duck; chances are it’s a duck;

But if it moos like a cow; chances are it’s not a duck.

Universalism is the wide gate and broad way!

Same sign as the other one; but not quite right;

And if we follow these teachings; we will find ourselves being called “wood” in the pits of an eternal Hell!
God Bless you, Irv

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 9:53 pm

I am very sorry but you have very poor knowledge. You are saying that unsaved sinful man can come into a state of salvation in the after life. This totally conflicts the Biblical view.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11)

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. (Rev 19:3)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15)

Now coming to your Greek language expertise:

Greek word "aion" used of God's glory

1. Philippians 4:20 "Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
2. 1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Greek word "aion" used of God's throne

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Greek word "aion" used of hell

1. Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
2. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."
3. Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
4. Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"

Greek word "aionios" used of hell

1. Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night."
2. Revelation 20:10 "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Bible is clear about the eternal nature of the punishment of the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46). It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary.

The New Testament use of the words eternal and everlasting makes it clear what they mean. It is "everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46). The fire is "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). There will be "eternal damnation" for some (Mark 3:29). For emphasis, consider how other verses use these words:

1. God is everlasting. "According to the commandment of the everlasting God" (ref. Romans 16:26). Does everlasting mean unending or temporary? Will God cease to exist?

2. The Holy Spirit is eternal. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God" (ref. Hebrews 9:14). Is the Holy Spirit temporary? When the lake of fire gives up her dead, will He go out of existence?

3. Redemption is eternal. "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:12) Is Christ's work of eternal redemption completed or was it for just a brief time?

4. Salvation is eternal. "He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" ( ref. Hebrews 5:9). Will salvation also be temporary as well?

5. The kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. The faithful will be in "the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Will the end to the suffrage of the wicked in the lake of fire also earmark the end of the kingdom of God?

The same words in both Greek and English are used to describe the future punishment of the wicked that are used to describe God, the Spirit, salvation, and the kingdom. "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). Therefore, the fallacy with even arguing how long the duration of "aion" and "aionios" as to mean an age or duration of time less than forever and ever and to mean something other than time everlasting to support the doctrine of universal reconciliation is that then the same argument can be applied to heaven, God, and the everlasting life of the saints.

My Conclusion
Your own definition of aionios will surely make God's Throne time-framed and limited. Can you explain it now???

God bless you

Source

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:04 pm

The literal translation "for the ages of the ages" (a limited period of time) perfectly fits all of your illustrations.
Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of aionious is saying. He is the God of these miserable time periods called the ages. Regardless of how it seems in this world He's the Boss and His throne (rulership) is over these limited periods of time. Everything is perfectly under His control.

You said, "It is easy to see that Life is the same in duration as is the Punishment of the wicked. If one is temporary, so is the other. If the punishment of those held within the lake of fire is temporary, heaven is also temporary." Not so.
While the first fruits of election (the remnant chosen by grace) who will be raised in the first resurrection are enjoying life eonian (age-during life), the non-elect will experience "kolasis eonian" which means age-during corrective chastisement if they need it after the great white throne judgment.

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following links.
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

And all three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:24 pm

Wow! I am amazed at your logic. You define aionios at your own convenience where it suits you. If aionios means temporary or time-framed then it must be true for other Biblical references.

So you are deceiving others because if aion as defined by you, means temporary then aion used in Hebrews 1:8 must have the same definition. So your logic is poor and has no base.

God bless you

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:26 pm

Irv Everett wrote:rogertutt, what a compelling arguement, I thoroughly enjoyed reading from the website you submitted; but I must disagree.
Matthew 7:13-14 says: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat
Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it
Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat

Go to http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html and click on THE STRAIGHT GATE.
Regarding the word "destruction"

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.” It is the same word Jesus used when He said

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). and

"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, “Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep”" (Luke 15:4-7).

This word, “apollumi,” is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)

The original word for “destroy” there is “apollumi” which means “to lose or be lost.” This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the “lost” sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone “perishing.” Such as in John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.” We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.

If apollumi or apollumi meant destruction according to the traditional definition by those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation, then Jesus is lost forever:

"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and DESTROY (apollumi) Jesus." Matt. 27:20

So then, will you hold to the "traditional" view which makes the word of God of no effect? Or will you have the courage to go against the traditional hell-fire or annihilation view which denigrates the precious victory Jesus bought through conquering death on the Cross for all mankind?

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:42 pm

rodgertutt wrote:Go to http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html and click on THE STRAIGHT GATE.
Regarding the word "destruction"

I would suggest you to go to Bible and open 1 Corinthians verse 6:9-10 and it says:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

God when He spoke through Paul, He clearly stated do not be deceived and we can only be deceived by satan. Then God said that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So whichever website you quote or whichever dictionary you quote, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 clearly says that you are deceived and you cannot deny it.

God bless you

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:43 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote:Wow! I am amazed at your logic. You define aionios at your own convenience where it suits you. If aionios means temporary or time-framed then it must be true for other Biblical references.
So you are deceiving others because if aion as defined by you, means temporary then aion used in Hebrews 1:8 must have the same definition. So your logic is poor and has no base. God bless you

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
"Thy throne O God is for the ages of the ages." a limited period of time. He is the King of the ages. It doesn't mean God is not King forever. Of course He is. But it is saying that no matter how it looks to the contrary, God is in complete control over the ages. which is a limited period of time.
There are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33, tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies."

Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).

THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING

Literal Translation King James

Heb.1:2	God made the eons	God made the worlds
1Cor.2:7	before the eons	before the world
2 Tim.1:9	before times eonian	before the world began

THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY

Heb.9:26	the end of the eons	the end of the world
1Cor.10:11	the end of the eons	the ends of the world
Matt.24:3	the end of the eon	the end of the world

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:51 pm

[quote="Waqar Daniel"]

rodgertutt wrote:Go to http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html and click on THE STRAIGHT GATE.
Regarding the word "destruction"

I would suggest you to go to Bible and open 1 Corinthians verse 6:9-10 and it says:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.God when He spoke through Paul, He clearly stated do not be deceived and we can only be deceived by satan. Then God said that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
So whichever website you quote or whichever dictionary you quote, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 clearly says that you are deceived and you cannot deny it.
God bless you

When God gets through with them in the lake of fire which is the second death none of those individuals will have a heart to sin any more. No one will be in the kindom of God until they change, but EVERYONE will, sooner or later change.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:53 pm

You are typical cut, copy, paste character and nothing more than that. I asked you to define 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and you avoided that. Search more may be you can find some answer.

You are just playing with words and nothing else. You cannot stand by the definition you give of one word because the definition you give does not hold true for other Biblical references. So you have no knowledge, it is just cut, copy, paste from here and there. Sorry quote verses as I have already told you and not websites.

If God said that no unrighteous person will enter the Kingdom of God then who are you to challenge this. Search some more websites, I believe that if you would have searched the Bible you would have found the answer.

You are just finding excuses and that too lame ones to justify yourself as I have told you before when you first wrote this article. And you are just repeating the same old things again and again.

God bless you

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:54 pm

You really make me laugh, we are all quoting from Bible and you are quoting from this website http://tentmaker.org

Is it Bible that we should follow this website???

God bless you

rodgertutt Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:56 pm

Waqar Daniel wrote: You are typical cut, copy, paste character and nothing more than that. I asked you to define 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and you avoided that. Search more may be you can find some answer. God bless you

When God gets through with them in the lake of fire which is the second death none of those individuals will have a heart to sin any more. No one will be in the kindom of God until they change, but EVERYONE will, sooner or later change.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

**Waqar Daniel** Fri 24 Oct 2008, 11:58 pm

rodgertutt wrote:When God gets through with them in the lake of fire which is the second death none of those individuals will have a heart to sin any more. No one will be in the kindom of God until they change, but EVERYONE will, sooner or later change.

Where is it written in the Bible? Now if you want to discuss and debate this topic then quote the verse from the Bible and do not quote any article from any website. If you cannot quote any verse to support your claim, then stop this debate.

God bless you

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 12:00 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:You really make me laugh, we are all quoting from Bible and you are quoting from this website http://tentmaker.org
Is it Bible that we should follow this website??? God bless you

You are quoting from incorrectly translated Bibles and we prove it.

CORRECTLY TRANSLATED BIBLES

One of the important tools for believing that the Bible teaches universal reconciliation is to use a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible. Here are several. The ones on line you don't even have to pay for.

CORRECT TRANSLATIONS ONLINE

CONCORDANT http://www.concordant.org/about/index.html

http://www.concordant.org/version/html.html

YOUNG'S LITERAL http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/rylt/rylt.html

OTHER CORRECT TRANSLATIONS NOT ONLINE LISTED AT THE FOLLOWING THREE LINKS

http://www.members.cox.net/tmurr10/aswundivided.html#10

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Or, if the links don't work, copy and paste into Google any of the following three titles

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Chapter Ten - Bibles Without "Everlasting Punishment"

Hell is leaving the Bible forever

I think the Concordant Literal Translation is the most accurate.
Of the versions not online I like ROTHERHAM'S EMPHASIZED BIBLE the best.

Four scriptural expositions expounding UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION are found at

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/doubts.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/index.html

http://gtft.org/Library/condon/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.htm

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 12:05 am

Waqar Daniel wrote:
rodgertutt wrote:When God gets through with them in the lake of fire which is the second death none of those individuals will have a heart to sin any more. No one will be in the kindom of God until they change, but EVERYONE will, sooner or later change.
Where is it written in the Bible? Now if you want to discuss and debate this topic then quote the verse from the Bible and do not quote any article from any website. If you cannot quote any verse to support your claim, then stop this debate. God bless you

PROOF FROM THE BIBLE

SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH

EVERYONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"

There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.

Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:

Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all 1Cor.15:28
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 3:08 am

My testimony contains information that, according to the many entries in my guest book, and the many positive emails in my email file folders, is helping many people. My guest book can be accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
Also see the testimonies at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

My guest book only holds 150 messages. Then the oldest ones are automatically deleted to make room for the newest ones.

SO MUCH SUFFERING is caused by the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell, that it gives me great pleasure to guide people to the evidence that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

We agree with fundamentalist Christians that we should not believe things that go against Biblical teaching. We don’t.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm

I'm 69, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

I myself suffered a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 because of my inability to love an endless-hell god. I’m 69 now.

If any member or surfer on forums is suffering because they are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God is going to let any creature suffer forever, they can Google up the search engine at the top of the TENTMAKER front page. Just type in a key word or phrase from each argument or scripture passages and ten articles will appear that refute the eternal hell and annihilationist doctrines. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.

Most fundamentalist Christians are not even aware that there are two sides to the argument about what the Bible teaches.

I have exhaustively studied both sides myself. This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.

If your readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then they should keep believing that.

But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

I am a Concordant Christian. I have read and recorded gleanings into my more than four thousand page personal journal from most of the back issues of UNSEARCHABLE RICHES that has been published back to 1909. Every argument that I have ever heard against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been repeatedly dealt with in these magazines.
http://www.concordant.org/unsearchable/UnsearchableRiches.html

Largely, but not exclusively, because of the contents in these magazines, I am convinced that the evidence in support of the Bible teaching universal salvation is irrefutable. That is why the argument that we should teach endless suffering in hell just in case it might be true is unacceptable to me. IMHO the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe in "eternal suffering" for anyone and not have a nervous breakdown thinking about it.
Here are several Concordant websites.
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.saviourofall.org/
http://gtft.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

I also would like to leave you with one more link. I am going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. Only he is more eloquent in telling his story than I am in telling mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

It may begin to change your thinking.

The url of my own site is
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

God bless you in your study!
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

**Waqar Daniel** Sat 25 Oct 2008, 1:44 pm

The problem discussing with people who like to deceive people is that they write huge articles and try to confuse people by misquoting the Bible and giving many online references, trying to show that what they are speaking is truth.

rodgertutt wrote:You are quoting from incorrectly translated Bibles and we prove it.

I quoted 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and you say that I am quoting from incorrectly translated Bible. So convenient - Therefore, I will leave no excuse for you and I will quote from the online Bibles you have mentioned.

Your Source of Bible
brethren! 6:9 have you not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites, 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, the reign of God shall inherit.

Source: http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/rylt/1corrylt.html

Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.

Source: http://www.concordant.org/version/NewFiles/07_FirstCorinthians.htm

How strange that the verse I quoted talks the same thing. So what excuse do you make now? I used the online Bibles you say are correct translated versions. They both say that evil-doers will never enter the kingdom of God.

rodgertutt wrote:I'm 69, and I am acquainted with many people who are, or were in various stages of nervous breakdown over their inability to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Even though they have embraced Christ and His gospel, they are afraid of what God might do to them after they are raised from the dead for not being able to love Him. The information in my testimony has helped many of these people.

You re-posted this article. My question is Shall we close our eyes from the reality just to satisfy our sinful lives?

I asked a simple question, where God has said in the Bible that everyone will be forgiven. To deceive others you simply wrote Colossians 1:25. You did not even care to write the verse because you were trying to deceive others.

of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God, (Col 1:25)

Where does it say that everyone will be forgiven in the end. It simply talks of Paul talking of preaching Gospel to gentiles as he has also claimed in Ephesians 3:3 that by revelation He made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief,

Last question; Do we have to blame God for our sins? Does God have to change according to our will or do we have to change according His will? Can we justify our sinful lives just by saying that there is no hell?

God bless you

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 2:08 pm

SEE HOW YOU TWIST MY WORDS? I never said "there is no hell."

THE BIBLE TRUTH ABOUT “HELL”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

People who want to keep believing in the doctrine of "endless hell" will not read the following four articles.

But people who don't want to believe that the Bible teaches "endless hell" will read all four of them and will be filled with great joy at finding out the truth!

(If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your address bar.)

What Jesus really taught about "hell."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

What the Bible really teaches about "hell."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

Copy and paste into Google

tentmaker books chapter eleven
and
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
and
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 2:14 pm

Eternal Torment Calvinism, Eternal Torment Arminianism, Annihilation, or Christian Biblical Universalism.
Which one of the four is the truth?

This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.

If readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever or annihilate them, then they should keep believing that.

But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

THE ALL-IMPORTANT KEY ISSUE

The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in

chapter three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant.

These findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold. But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy, or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

The following chapter links in blue probably may be activated on this post.

About the Author
Dedication
Forward
Chapter1 - Definitions of Aion, Aionios
Chapter2 - Usages of Aion
Chapter3 - Opinion of the Scholars
Chapter4 - Apparent Contradictions
Chapter5 - "Forever and Ever" - A Poor Translation
Chapter6 - What Saith The Translations?
Chapter7 - Eonian Means What? - A Search For Truth
Chapter8 - Greek Tools
Chapter9 - Examples in Greek Literature
Chapter10 - Bibles Without "Everlasting Punishment"
Chapter11 - Verses "Proving" Punishment Will be Everlasting
Chapter12 - Scholars Acknowledge Restitution of All
Chapter13 - Punishment? Yes - Everlasting? No
Chapter14 - A Long, But Not Eternal Visit To "Hell"
Chapter15 - The "Chosen," Not "I have chosen"
Chapter16 - Clearing Things Up
Chapter17 - The Complete Revelation
Appendix 1 - Commentary of Previous Presentation
Appendix 2 - Do You Believe ALL in the Bible?
Appendix 3 - Reconciliation Scriptures
Appendix 4 - What Pleases the Father?
Appendix 5 - What if we are Wrong?
Christian Biblical Universalism versus Annihilation http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Bible Threatenings Explained http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Universal Salvation University http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

I Love Jesus Sat 25 Oct 2008, 3:30 pm

Let us believe in what we believe in. I think he is just promoting his website and nothing else. He has no answers and even then he keeps on repeating his articles. What does it have to do with God if people reject God and disobey Him?

Common Sat 25 Oct 2008, 6:46 pm

Hello. I have been reading over the arguments and I think that it should be time to stop. Rodgertutt, if you still choose to believe what you believe, go ahead. We may disagree with you, but we are not condemning you. Daniel, if Rodgertutt wants to stick to his belief and believe it, then it is useless to keep on struggling. You have did your part.

My point is that it should stop here. It is not wise to go on.

God bless you all.

rodgertutt Sat 25 Oct 2008, 10:39 pm

Common wrote:Hello. I have been reading over the arguments and I think that it should be time to stop. Rodgertutt, if you still choose to believe what you believe, go ahead. We may disagree with you, but we are not condemning you. Daniel, if Rodgertutt wants to stick to his belief and believe it, then it is useless to keep on struggling. You have did your part.
My point is that it should stop here. It is not wise to go on. God bless you all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, I'm willing to stop. But because I have a lot of evidence that my info has helped many people for many years I would just like to make this parting post.
Many people are unable to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God will allow anyone to suffer forever. In case there are surfers or lurkers on this forum I would like them to be aware of the following choices. Had I know about these choices as a youth I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78. I'll be 70 in less than two weeks.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE

Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
What About Annihilation of the Wicked?
http://www.christian-universalism.com/faq/annihilation.html

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY
See
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown 1966-78. I’m 69

I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78 had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

I am unchecking notify me when a reply is posted so you can carry on uninterrupted with your refutations of Christian Biblical Universalism to your heart's content. :-)
I'm just glad I had an oportunity to make people here aware that there is another point of view, whether or not they are inclined to study it for themselves.
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
"That God may be All in all" 1Cor. 15:28

Common Sun 26 Oct 2008, 12:42 am

Hi Rodgertutt. Though I am not continuing on any debate, I agree with you on one aspect. I do not believe that hell is forever. I believe it only lasts until death. What I disagree with is that everyone will be let into heaven.

Blessings for your 70th birthday and I'm sorry for your nervous breakdown.

**Waqar Daniel** Sun 26 Oct 2008, 3:01 pm

rodgertutt wrote:I'm just glad I had an oportunity to make people here aware that there
is another point of view, whether or not they are inclined to study it
for themselves.

Satan also produced another view point to Eve and this time I will quote from LITV so that you may not make an excuse that I am quoting from incorrectly translated version of Bible.

God's Words
And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Eating you may eat of every tree in the garden; but of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you may not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying you shall die. Genesis 2:16-17

Satan's View / Another View
And the serpent was cunning above every animal of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Is it true that God has said, You shall not eat from any tree of the garden? And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die. And the serpent said to the woman, Dying you shall not die, (Genesis 3:1-4)

Just an other view point - If I personally believe in your philosophy, then what was the need of Jesus to come and suffer, shed His blood on the cross and die? After all according to you everyone would be forgiven in the end. Don't you think that your view point is totally illogical and contrary to Bible.

Your Nervous System breakdown proves nothing and we cannot base Bible on your Nervous System. You are responsible for your own actions.

God bless you

rose Sun 26 Oct 2008, 3:08 pm

Common Jesus said this in Mark 16:16

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Now, condemned is a pretty soft word in the English language. I actually like the King James Version, where it says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

Condemned or damned, it means eternally separated from God with no opportunity of rescue or retrieval. Forever lost. Think about it!

Do you recall the story Jesus told of the rich man who died? It ought to send a shudder through the heart of even the most brazen sinner.

Jesus tells us that the rich man died and was in torment, in flame. Jesus goes on to say that the rich man lifted up his eyes, and begged for mercy. But no mercy came, even as it says in Revelation 14:11, “The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.”

I know it is not a popular subject in the Church to talk about hell, but Jesus talked more about hell than He did about heaven. It is a very real place. If we would consider just for a moment the end of the man or woman who rejects Christ, it ought to cause our hearts to be stirred with compassion.

Common Sun 26 Oct 2008, 3:13 pm

Hi Rose. I already went over this plenty a time before. I know that we will be eternally separated from God. But we will not be living. We will be dead. Eternal death, separated from God.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a Parable. In other words, not real. Jesus often spoke to the Jews of His day on their level of understanding.

The "smoke of their torment" was already discussed. You can see previous posts on that.

God bless.

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